The next target

Norm · Post by **Norm** » Thu Dec 12, 2002 6:51 pm

Iran

The sneaky little Iranians are up to no good again

p2ii · Post by **p2ii** » Thu Dec 12, 2002 7:38 pm

you surprised? The Ayatollah is waiting to give Marching orders from beyond!

Mehmet · Post by **Mehmet** » Thu Dec 12, 2002 7:42 pm

f|_|ck you bush.

I knew this f*cking sh*t would happen..

yeah, sure, go attack iraq, and afghanistan, and then you go after iran too? So there is no end is what the idiot at the whitehouse is saying.

Youll see, once we attack iran, the idiot will find somewhere else to attack too.. I can see that the US wants no more muslims , or no middle east.

Brk · Post by **Brk** » Thu Dec 12, 2002 7:49 pm

Originally posted by Mehmet
I can see that the US wants no more muslims , or no middle east.

That is an ignorant statement of the first order.

p2ii · Post by **p2ii** » Thu Dec 12, 2002 7:50 pm

sounds like something you might hear on a sensationalist news show!

downhill · Post by **downhill** » Thu Dec 12, 2002 7:54 pm

Originally posted by p2ii
sounds like something you might hear on a sensationalist news show!

Like FOX!!

Hey!!! Maybe we could email Bret Hume and get him to say it!!! Only blame umm.................Roosevelt!!!!!

Wow...a few more thousand voters for the cause!!!

Good idea, p2ii!!

Opps...forgot, Fox already does that...my bad.

Mehmet · Post by **Mehmet** » Thu Dec 12, 2002 7:57 pm

Originally posted by Burke
That is an ignorant statement of the first order.

ignorant my ass.

you live in the middle east for 8 years and you tell me.

p2ii · Post by **p2ii** » Thu Dec 12, 2002 7:57 pm

haha good one

Brk · Post by **Brk** » Thu Dec 12, 2002 8:01 pm

Originally posted by Mehmet
ignorant my ass.

you live in the middle east for 8 years and you tell me.

First off, I don't WANT to live in the Middle East. I don't adhere to the "walk a mile in my shoes" crap, because it's a cop-out.

To use the converse of your assumption, what if I said that I think that all Muslims and/or their leaders want to kill all Americans? You'd have a problem with that, right?

Paft · Post by **Paft** » Thu Dec 12, 2002 8:02 pm

Originally posted by Mehmet
I can see that the US wants no more muslims , or no middle east.

Not everyone in the United States wants this to happen. Only the people in power, and unfortunately they are the ones that the rest of the world sees.

I agree - Screw you, Bush.

Mehmet · Post by **Mehmet** » Thu Dec 12, 2002 8:07 pm

Originally posted by Burke
First off, I don't WANT to live in the Middle East. I don't adhere to the "walk a mile in my shoes" crap, because it's a cop-out.

To use the converse of your assumption, what if I said that I think that all Muslims and/or their leaders want to kill all Americans? You'd have a problem with that, right?

goes both ways. maybe if the US kept their noses out EVERYONES business?? The reason almost every muslim leader would want to atleast hurt the US is just because of that.. the US just cant keep their big noses out of everyones life.

Mehmet · Post by **Mehmet** » Thu Dec 12, 2002 8:09 pm

Originally posted by Burke
First off, I don't WANT to live in the Middle East. I don't adhere to the "walk a mile in my shoes" crap, because it's a cop-out.

To use the converse of your assumption, what if I said that I think that all Muslims and/or their leaders want to kill all Americans? You'd have a problem with that, right?

also, the walk a mile in my shoes crap is NOT a cop out, because the European/western view of things just doesnt cut it.. hell, i bet in your mind you see the arabs as a bunch of barbaric people... but if you actually went and lived there, you would understand the whole "walk a mile in your shoes crap"..

Heres a suggestion toe veryone on this forum... read the book "road to mecca" by Muhammad Asad.. GREAT book..

torsten · Post by **torsten** » Thu Dec 12, 2002 8:16 pm

I desperately hope they DO go after Iran. In most ways Iran is worse than Iraq.

And as far as minding one's own business -- if anyone needs any reminding, I'll post pics of the World Trade Center burning and falling. On that day it BECAME the business of the US and any threatened western nation. Iran has been a huge supporter of terrorism for years. The time for their theocratic regime has long passed.

Paft · Post by **Paft** » Thu Dec 12, 2002 8:17 pm

Originally posted by torsten
And as far as minding one's own business -- if anyone needs any reminding, I'll post pics of the World Trade Center burning and falling. On that day it BECAME the business of the US and any threatened western nation.

Shall I remind you that an attack on us only enables us to respond in kind to the agressor?

This is like fighting back against the school bully.. AND all of his friends.

Mehmet · Post by **Mehmet** » Thu Dec 12, 2002 8:19 pm

Originally posted by torsten
I desperately hope they DO go after Iran. In most ways Iran is worse than Iraq.

And as far as minding one's own business -- if anyone needs any reminding, I'll post pics of the World Trade Center burning and falling. On that day it BECAME the business of the US and any threatened western nation. Iran has been a huge supporter of terrorism for years. The time for their theocratic regime has long passed.

Iran has been a huge supporter of terrorism for years.

so has the US.. hell.. we gave Osama all he wanted, and guess what, now he's "our main target".

and also, why not go after the terrorists like the guy who was responsible for the oklahoma city bombing? why not go after people IN THE US..

We even supported Trujillo..

in the views of others, we are the terrorists of the world.

torsten · Post by **torsten** » Thu Dec 12, 2002 8:24 pm

Originally posted by Mehmet
also, the walk a mile in my shoes crap is NOT a cop out, because the European/western view of things just doesnt cut it.

Heres a suggestion toe veryone on this forum... read the book "road to mecca" by Muhammad Asad.. GREAT book..

If you want to know what doesn't cut it, it's the current fundamentalist ideology that gives the MiddleEast a bad reputation. Turn your gaze and your wrath toward the problem rather than resenting the source of most of the world's progress.

And here's a better suggestion for reading, that is, if you are really interested in learning about this issue. The Rage and the Pride by Oriana Fallaci. GREAT book.

p2ii · Post by **p2ii** » Thu Dec 12, 2002 8:25 pm

and also, why not go after the terrorists like the guy who was responsible for the oklahoma city bombing? why not go after people IN THE US..

actually, we did. he's dead and his name was Timothy McVeigh.

EvilAngel · Post by **EvilAngel** » Thu Dec 12, 2002 8:28 pm

So the US is the ONLY place that can have Nuclear technology?

I heard on the radio today that if Saddm uses biochemicals that Bush said he'd use full force, even if that ment small nukes....

Mehmet · Post by **Mehmet** » Thu Dec 12, 2002 8:29 pm

Originally posted by p2ii
actually, we did. he's dead and his name was Timothy McVeigh.

im aware..

there are more than one.

If you want to know what doesn't cut it, it's the current fundamentalist ideology that gives the MiddleEast a bad reputation. Turn your gaze and your wrath toward the problem rather than resenting the source of most of the world's progress.

Fundamentalist ideology? So anyone who practices islam, is the problem huh? you dont understand, Islam has more restrictions and rules than christianity or Judaism.. so were called fundamentalists because we practice islam.. yeah, whatever.

WHAT problem?

Also, bout that book, the guy ever been to the mid east? I dont understand middle east "experts" whove NEVER been in them middle east..

torsten · Post by **torsten** » Thu Dec 12, 2002 8:29 pm

Originally posted by Paft
Shall I remind you that an attack on us only enables us to respond in kind to the agressor?

This is like fighting back against the school bully.. AND all of his friends.

I would agree, IF the agressor were only the few hijackers. Unfortunately that is not the case. bin Laden, Al Qaeda, Hamas, and others are simply fronts for an ideology that has millions of supporters and is backed financially and ideologically by several governments.

JawZ · Post by **JawZ** » Thu Dec 12, 2002 8:30 pm

I think you all need to stop being so emotional.

I have been to the Middle East several times in numerous locations and I can tell you, as I have MANY times before, that the people of the Middle East aren't out to get us or anyone for that matter. They just want to live and be left alone.

With that said, political regimes, especially Middle Eastern regimes, are not truly representative of the people....some can even say that is true of the US.

It is these bodies that have problems with one another for a great multitude of reasons...most of it is posturing.

But there are some fundamental differences....and we are caught in the middle while trying to find some common ground.

Beware....idiots are everywhere.

torsten · Post by **torsten** » Thu Dec 12, 2002 8:43 pm

Originally posted by Mehmet
Fundamentalist ideology? So anyone who practices islam, is the problem huh? you dont understand, Islam has more restrictions and rules than christianity or Judaism.. so were called fundamentalists...

Also, bout that book, the guy ever been to the mid east? I dont understand middle east "experts" whove NEVER been in them middle east..

So you have to distort what I said in order to attack it? Who said anything about "anyone who practices Islam." Fundamentalism has a specific meaning. It's when people take texts literally and try to enact things they can't objectively prove (beliefs) into law and force others who don't share those beliefs to practice them. Almost every religion has it's fundamentalists, but only one seems to be currently wreaking havoc on the world. Part of my outrage over this is that I feel very sorry for the many people in the Middle East who have to suffer from this oppression. Everyone, not just Westerners, deserves to have their individual rights respected. No "culture" should ever dominate the individual.

"What problem"? um..... how about serious widespread oppression of individual liberties in just about every nation in the region? How about international terrorism? Hmmm.. yeah I guess there's no problems with fundamentalism. puhleeze.

And yes, Fallaci (a woman) is quite familiar with the region. She's been a journalist for decades and has lived and worked throughout the world and has taken special interest in Middle eastern issues.

Mehmet · Post by **Mehmet** » Thu Dec 12, 2002 8:56 pm

Originally posted by torsten
So you have to distort what I said in order to attack it? Who said anything about "anyone who practices Islam." Fundamentalism has a specific meaning. It's when people take texts literally and try to enact things they can't objectively prove (beliefs) into law and force others who don't share those beliefs to practice them. Almost every religion has it's fundamentalists, but only one seems to be currently wreaking havoc on the world. Part of my outrage over this is that I feel very sorry for the many people in the Middle East who have to suffer from this oppression. Everyone, not just Westerners, deserves to have their individual rights respected. No "culture" should ever dominate the individual.

"What problem"? um..... how about serious widespread oppression of individual liberties in just about every nation in the region? How about international terrorism? Hmmm.. yeah I guess there's no problems with fundamentalism. puhleeze.

And yes, Fallaci (a woman) is quite familiar with the region. She's been a journalist for decades and has lived and worked throughout the world and has taken special interest in Middle eastern issues.

No "culture" should ever dominate the individual.

Exactly, but we can definetly see the us "culture" dominating everyother individual there is.. the whole "we're better than everybody else" ideaology is getting old.

how bout the international terrorism the US had caused, i dont see any difference between the attack on aghanistan, Iraq, and Iran, and the attack on the WTC.. They probably had more innocent people killed then we did..

The US people dont see the terrorism the US does to other people.. Remember those Sanctions against Iraq.. well, i dont need to say anymore about those "sanctions"

zooner · Post by **zooner** » Thu Dec 12, 2002 8:56 pm

Originally posted by UOD
I think you all need to stop being so emotional.

I have been to the Middle East several times in numerous locations and I can tell you, as I have MANY times before, that the people of the Middle East aren't out to get us or anyone for that matter. They just want to live and be left alone.

With that said, political regimes, especially Middle Eastern regimes, are not truly representative of the people....some can even say that is true of the US.

It is these bodies that have problems with one another for a great multitude of reasons...most of it is posturing.

But there are some fundamental differences....and we are caught in the middle while trying to find some common ground.

Beware....idiots are everywhere.

BRAVO!! BRAVO!!

speaking of our great leader...

just greatly reduceded HEAP support! No more heat for the poor!! Let's have a fourth raise of our armed forces AND build a 70 billion non-functional missle defense system AND let's make off-shore us companies allowed to have goverment contracts.

yahoo bush!!

I hope the concaine, I mean pretezel, problem is okay now!

zooner · Post by **zooner** » Thu Dec 12, 2002 9:00 pm

lil note.

I feel the armed forces deserve every penny.

I just think he's buying the votes there.

JawZ · Post by **JawZ** » Thu Dec 12, 2002 9:03 pm

dis-torsten.....haha! I just made that up...sorry.

Torsten, what bothers me is that.....

looking at thread while typing and I'm seeing something that bothers me.

Mehmet.....we didn't attack Afghanistan....we attacked the Taliban and Al-Qaeda. We restored the fragile peace that exists today in that region by ousting the oppressive Taliban regime.

Back to Torsten...

...we have people in America, like Mehmet, that feel disenfranchised for some reason. It almost seems as if they are watching an entirely different news broadcast. How do we bring these people in?

How do we show that America isn't out to kill innocent people. If anything, it is these oppressive regimes that cause the death of their own people.

JawZ · Post by **JawZ** » Thu Dec 12, 2002 9:06 pm

Remember those Sanctions against Iraq.. well, i dont need to say anymore about those "sanctions"

the sanctions could've been lifted at any time had Saddam complied with the UN Security Council resolutions. Just that simple. So by defying the UN....he's sacrificing his own people. What are we supposed to do?

Paft · Post by **Paft** » Thu Dec 12, 2002 9:07 pm

Originally posted by UOD
...we have people in America, like Mehmet, that feel disenfranchised for some reason. It almost seems as if they are watching an entirely different news broadcast. How do we bring these people in?

How do we show that America isn't out to kill innocent people. If anything, it is these oppressive regimes that cause the death of their own people.

We aren't out to kill innocent people? Gee, you sure could have fooled me.. after all, we're attacking countries that have not harmed us (Iraq), sticking our noses where we shouldn't even be involved (Israel, Korea, Vietnam), and generally pushing our "holier than thou" attitude on everyone.

It's an extention of the, "oh gee, we're christian, we can do no wrong" attitude that impacts this country - under god, for the children! - and ruins our image.

Mehmet · Post by **Mehmet** » Thu Dec 12, 2002 9:12 pm

Originally posted by Paft
We aren't out to kill innocent people? Gee, you sure could have fooled me.. after all, we're attacking countries that have not harmed us (Iraq), sticking our noses where we shouldn't even be involved (Israel, Korea, Vietnam), and generally pushing our "holier than thou" attitude on everyone.

It's an extention of the, "oh gee, we're christian, we can do no wrong" attitude that impacts this country - under god, for the children! - and ruins our image.

Good points here paft.. heck, the big ol' US couldnt even defeat the vietnamese, in the vietnam war..

and if the US didnt butt in to other peoples businesses like with Israel.. i bet that issue wouldve been solved by now..

JawZ · Post by **JawZ** » Thu Dec 12, 2002 9:16 pm

Originally posted by Paft
We aren't out to kill innocent people? Gee, you sure could have fooled me.. after all, we're attacking countries that have not harmed us (Iraq), sticking our noses where we shouldn't even be involved (Israel, Korea, Vietnam), and generally pushing our "holier than thou" attitude on everyone.

It's an extension of the, "oh gee, we're Christian, we can do no wrong" attitude that impacts this country - under god, for the children! - and ruins our image.

Regimes & Governments do not equal countries. We are not targeting civilians anywhere at any place at any time Paft.

I can clearly see that these arguments are going nowhere because most of you don't listen to the entire story...you only hear what you want to hear. there is a real lack of critical thinking going on in this country and you are evidence of that.(not you personally) I'm sorry but someone has to say it.

It does make me wonder though......what political force in the public schools is behind this?

Paft · Post by **Paft** » Thu Dec 12, 2002 9:24 pm

Originally posted by UOD
Regimes & Governments do not equal countries. We are not targeting civilians anywhere at any place at any time Paft.

I understand that. But at the same time that we kill people like Al-Quida, we do kill civilians. It's just something that has to happen in war.

This is what I mean: That we are getting involved where we don't need to. Not that we shouldn't get involved at all - Of course you fight back when attacked, only good military strategy.

torsten · Post by **torsten** » Thu Dec 12, 2002 9:27 pm

Originally posted by Mehmet
how bout the international terrorism the US had caused, i dont see any difference between the attack on aghanistan, Iraq, and Iran, and the attack on the WTC.. They probably had more innocent people killed then we did..

The US people dont see the terrorism the US does to other people.. Remember those Sanctions against Iraq.. well, i dont need to say anymore about those "sanctions"

If you don't see any difference between slamming jets into the WTC and the removal of an atrociously brutal regime from power, you're admitting publicly to an ignorance that goes beyond explanation. In fact I'd say it's closer to maliciousness than ignorance. It sounds more like the simplistic us vs. them blind rhetoric that you hear from racists and nationalists. Come on, I think you do understand the difference.

The Iraqi sanctions were a result of failure to comply with post Gulf War agreements. That was a choice made by Hussein only. The same guy we're trying to get rid of now. The person responsible for the whole mess in the first place. But rather than place blame where it belongs, you'd rather attack the people who are trying to HELP the people of Iraq. You consider liberators as being the bad guys? What the hell is your motivation? Again, it sounds like an us vs. them thing where emotions, blood, and religion seem to matter more than facts. That's a shame.

torsten · Post by **torsten** » Thu Dec 12, 2002 9:34 pm

Originally posted by Mehmet
and if the US didnt butt in to other peoples businesses like with Israel.. i bet that issue wouldve been solved by now..

Hmmm. You may have a point here. The US routinely pressures Israel to NOT respond adequately to attacks against it. So...... maybe the problem would have been taken care of if Israel had fewer shackles on it's ability to defend itself.

JawZ · Post by **JawZ** » Thu Dec 12, 2002 9:35 pm

Originally posted by Paft
We aren't out to kill innocent people? Gee, you sure could have fooled me.. after all, we're attacking countries that have not harmed us (Iraq), sticking our noses where we shouldn't even be involved (Israel, Korea, Vietnam), and generally pushing our "holier than thou" attitude on everyone.

It's an extension of the, "oh gee, we're Christian, we can do no wrong" attitude that impacts this country - under god, for the children! - and ruins our image.

One little point that I'd like to make:

From what you are saying....or NOT saying, you are implying that without US intervention....these countries are free to attack eachother at will?

Communists overrun South Korea, communists overrun South Vietnam, Iraq invades Kuwait.....the list goes on and ends with Al-Qaeda striking us on our own soil. So we should stay out of everyone else's business correct?

EvilAngel · Post by **EvilAngel** » Thu Dec 12, 2002 9:38 pm

Originally posted by UOD
One little point that I'd like to make:

From what you are saying....or NOT saying, you are implying that without US intervention....these countries are free to attack eachother at will?

Communists overrun South Korea, communists overrun South Vietnam, Iraq invades Kuwait.....the list goes on and ends with Al-Qaeda striking us on our own soil. So we should stay out of everyone else's business correct?

Pow!!... Damn good point!

torsten · Post by **torsten** » Thu Dec 12, 2002 9:45 pm

Originally posted by UOD
Back to Torsten...

...we have people in America, like Mehmet, that feel disenfranchised for some reason. It almost seems as if they are watching an entirely different news broadcast. How do we bring these people in?

How do we show that America isn't out to kill innocent people. If anything, it is these oppressive regimes that cause the death of their own people.

Actually there are different "news" sources that are perfectly willing to confirm the prejudices of those who just want to believe what they want to believe, damn the facts. That propaganda is a staple of both the left and the right in the US. And just as there are knee-jerk unthinking pro-American types, there are those who have an automatic resentment of virtually anything American, especially foreign policy. The truth rarely supports either of those positions. Unfortunately personal feelings and resentments often overwhelm an objective analysis.

zooner · Post by **zooner** » Thu Dec 12, 2002 10:10 pm

If you don't see any difference between slamming jets into the WTC and the removal of an atrociously brutal regime from power, you're admitting publicly to an ignorance that goes beyond explanation.

I see a huge point there and an even larger difference.

I believe a couple of things. First of all, bush knew. Why else would he have taken a WHOLE month off during the summer?? I believe the WTC's were sacrificed.

I believe bush is still on cocaine and that whole pretzel deal was a cover-up.

I believe afganistan had nothing to do with terrorism.

I believe terrorism is a catch-phrase and something to throw the covers over our eyes. Did 9/11 happen? Yes. Does even 5% of 'anti-terrorism' goverment activites have ANYTHING to do with the safety of the american public? No.

This reminds me of WWI. Let's sacrifice a battleship to pull the american people into a war.

The homestead bill started out as under 150 pages. Turned into over 400 pages of SLIME. That's how this whole thing has progressed.

I'll say it again. bush has sliced up heap. over 4 million gone that supports poor people's heating just in wny alone, cause we didnt vote for him. hope you like it cold

Yes. I'm strange.

Docsta · Post by **Docsta** » Thu Dec 12, 2002 10:11 pm

i hope we nuke Iran into
oblivion with the rest of Iraq and some other countries.

Onethenumber2 · Post by **Onethenumber2** » Thu Dec 12, 2002 10:28 pm

What does taking a month off have to do with knowing about terror. And the President never really has "time off"

The other acusations are entirely without basis as well.

The reason we get involved with
Vietnam vs. Vietnam
N. Korea vs. South Korea
PRC vs. ROC
Isreal vs. Everyone else
ect.

is because we have a policy of encouraging, spreading, and supporting democracy everywhere.

It has nothing to do with Christianity it has to do with democracy and National Security. The lives of you and your family.

JawZ · Post by **JawZ** » Thu Dec 12, 2002 10:36 pm

Originally posted by Onethenumber2
What does taking a month off have to do with knowing about terror. And the President never really has "time off"

The other acusations are entirely without basis as well.

The reason we get involved with
Vietnam vs. Vietnam
N. Korea vs. South Korea
PRC vs. ROC
Isreal vs. Everyone else
ect.

is because we have a policy of encouraging, spreading, and supporting democracy everywhere.

It has nothing to do with Christianity it has to do with democracy and National Security. The lives of you and your family.

since they aren't around to argue with you allow me.....

There are other valid forms of government and if the people under the rule of these governments are happy...then who are we to butt in and tell them that they are wrong?

The only reason we should "intervene" is if the people under the rule of these regimes ask us for help. If they are truly oppressed, they will ask us for help.

I don't think we need to worry about the spread of democracy anywhere...I think we need to worry about PRACTICING IT RIGHT HERE IN THE US OF A!!!!!!!

When voter turnout reaches 100%...then we can worry about the spread of democracy.