Running cable and structural firewalls.

RoundEye · Post by **RoundEye** » Sun Nov 10, 2002 11:08 pm

The company I work for just bought an existing buiding. I've been put in charge of getting the cable through it. On the second floor alone I have to do about 36 cat5 and 13 phone drops.

The problem is that between every stud there is two cross braces (firewalls), one about three feet from the floor and another about two feet from the ceiling. The second story floor is also 1.5 inch thick cement for sound proofing.

How in the hell am I supposed to get the cable through this building?

I've done tons of cable runs and never have run across a building that has a firewall between every stud, usually they have been every other stud. I thought the stud finder was lying to me untill I cut a big hole in the drywall to see.

I'm not looking forward to cabeling this building at all.

Set · Post by **Set** » Mon Nov 11, 2002 12:31 am

wow roundeye talk about a pain

Few ideas dimon drill bits they will cut cement or the steel of the firewall or maybe slip it beside the the firewall dunno if that possible or remove one of them firewalls

Let us know how it turns out

And Gl

poptom · Post by **poptom** » Mon Nov 11, 2002 12:39 am

How about using Wiremold with surface-mounted boxes?

Faust · Post by **Faust** » Mon Nov 11, 2002 12:53 am

yeah, i would agree on trying some kind of external routing. maybe baseboard or cieling corner molding? or heck, if looks aren't a problem, just use basic wall wiring molding, like you see on the outside of apt buildings and such.

putting that many holes through firewalls and cement would take a lot fo time and effort. is your company aware of the routing mess and what it could take to get it run properly?

Randy · Post by **Randy** » Mon Nov 11, 2002 1:07 am

1) exterior run an option?
2) 1/2 masonary bit and one good hammer drill
3) go to stripper bar get drunk and never return?

CiscoKid · Post by **CiscoKid** » Mon Nov 11, 2002 3:48 am

I would do the external cabeling rout. Do the have a drop ceiling in the building?

RoundEye · Post by **RoundEye** » Mon Nov 11, 2002 5:26 am

The building does have a drop ceiling on both floors. On the second floor I can go up and over to each area that needs a drop. As far as external runs that's an idea, but my boss likes things done professional looking and probably won't go for it.

The first floor is leased, people are already in it. So going down then across would be a major inconvenience for them.

My boss doesn't know yet, but will know soon.

Ken · Post by **Ken** » Mon Nov 11, 2002 7:01 am

Hey Roundeye,
In order for fireblocks to be effective, they must be between each stud, and down here, are required by code.
Are they metal studs or wood?

I am not sure what your building and layout looks like, however, the accoustical ceiling can be a big help if you can locate a hidden area, such as a closet, to get the cables up into the drop ceiling, depending where your server, etc., will be located.
You could then external mount them in the closet, run them through the ceiling, and either external or internal drop them to their work stations.
Give your boss the details and options. Tell him that a drywall company will be required to repair the drywall if he insists them inside the walls...
External drops with wire covers would be the most economical method and quite acceptable in many office buildings...

I don't believe that you would want to drill up through the concrete floor at each workstation either...

pics...?
Good luck!
Ken

RoundEye · Post by **RoundEye** » Mon Nov 11, 2002 8:24 am

Don't they make long flexible drill extensions?

So that I could drill through the firebreaks. Yes it will be a pain in the ass to fish the wire through.

But some way or another this building has to be wired.

We are also setting up wireless for some of the laptops, but my boss doesn't want that for all of the PC's.

Ken, they are all wood.

ugg

poptom · Post by **poptom** » Mon Nov 11, 2002 11:22 am

The long flexible drills are useful in some situations but you have to have room to maneuver them. You may need different lengths. They have a hole in the end to attach a fish wire when you back out. They recommend using a low power drill motor that will stall before twistng off the end. Make big holes, like 3/4".

Drilling through the thin concrete is pretty easy with a hammerdrill.

I suggest you propose using Wiremold surface mount products, though. It's a pretty slick system and it's not really obtrusive when painted to match. Graybar should have this stuff. See if you can pick up a brochure.

Firestops should be between all studs.

Stef · Post by **Stef** » Mon Nov 11, 2002 2:10 pm

Their not called firewalls, their called headers

Usually they don't sit flush between the drywall.

You can get a long holesaw extension and use a half-inch holesaw to blast through the headers but that's a real pain in the ass. Another option is attemp to drop a length of twine with some nuts tied on the end of it past the headers. That usually works, be carefull when pulling the cable in, you might catch a screw or a sharp edge.

Wire mold looks like *****, however it is a cheap alternative, another option would be to use pact poles (not sure what you guys call them, those poles that drop from the ceiling that have power/voice/data jacks) for your cable drops.

You never blast through a floor with a hammer drill. Hire some concrete workers to core through the floor with a coring machine

Account for 80% growth, which means if you only need one hole now get 3 cored and save two for future use.

Usually 2 1/8 " holes are used and metal or plastic sleeves are inserted in the holes to protect the cables from tearing on sharp edges.

My advice would be to get an electrical contrator to do all of the manual labor, that way you save on some of the installation cost and the frustration.

Stef

RoundEye · Post by **RoundEye** » Mon Nov 11, 2002 8:36 pm

Final outcome from my boss: get a long drill bit, make what ever holes are needed, where ever they are needed and drop the wires. Let the guys that are painting fix the holes.

I'm really not up for this, I'm sick as hell right now, and the fiberglass and dry wall dust is killing me. Even with a dust mask.

Oh well, enough pissing and moaning, time to just grin and bear it.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Mon Nov 11, 2002 8:44 pm

I would be willing to bet by the time you are finished, wireless would have been less expensive.

I would also bet that, depending on what YOUR time is worth or charged at, you could remove the drywall between the studs you want the outlets in, from floor to ceiling, and have it patched and painted by a subcontractor.

RoundEye · Post by **RoundEye** » Mon Nov 11, 2002 9:55 pm

Wireless is too slow, and too much latency. Plus an all Cisco wireless network is high when you have about 26 pc's and about six laptops. The WAP's are about $500 each and the nics about $200. We would have to have at least four WAPs to cover the building. I think if wireless was faster my boss would go for it. Right now I'm only doing the second floor, by the time this is done on the first floor too, I'm looking at 96 drops.

Plus the phone system, which is up to 13-15 drops at this point.

Right now we only have one Cisco switch, we are getting another one with a gigabit port and a giganic in the servers.

Let me explain something about my company, it's a CPA firm that branched out into software sales, which lead to network administration. My boss is a CPA who got his MCSE as a hobby. I help support and maintain about 100 different networks (along with 3 other guys). We also have a training room for our clients that buy our software packages.

Security is a concern and wireless slows down the higher the encryption that you use. We handle a lot of very confidential info for high profile clients here in New Orleans. We also store and archive data for them. Last month we printed out 155,000 pages of documents, along with 16 CD's for a federal trial, which I had to deliver by hand to the federal court house.

While some aspects of this job are a real bitch I consider myself lucky to have it. In about the past two years I've learned more about different networks then most techs see in thier whole working lives.

I still think cableing old construction sucks donkey nads.

Stef · Post by **Stef** » Tue Nov 12, 2002 12:15 am

Sounds like your company is so cheap their paying you to do all of the work

But, on the upside, I'll bet you got a whole ****wack stock. I heard that stuff tears when you wipe

Stef

RoundEye · Post by **RoundEye** » Tue Nov 12, 2002 8:01 am

Originally posted by Stef
.........Sounds like your company is so cheap their paying you to do all of the work........

Well think what you want, every year we get bonuses depending on how well, we as an employee performed and how well the company has done. They usually range from 1 to 6 grand each person.

Another thing my boss does, is pay you no matter what. I've gotten full checks even when I haven't worked for a whole week. Even though we have sick time and vacation time at work, it's never used against us.

One lady had a very tragic thing happen in her life and he paid her for two months, even when he wasn't sure if she was coming back, and she's in the 80K salary range.

I like my boss, I think he's a fair person and I'm willing to work hard for him.

And to be honest, as long as I get paid, I'll do whatever it takes to get the job done, short of cleaning bathrooms.

poptom · Post by **poptom** » Tue Nov 12, 2002 11:26 am

RoundEye,
Since you have to get into the walls, perhaps you can engage a freelance drywaller to work along with you. He would know where to cut to remove large sections and give you room to work without a lot of hassle. That would speed things up dramatically.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Tue Nov 12, 2002 12:36 pm

Originally posted by poptom
RoundEye,
Since you have to get into the walls, perhaps you can engage a freelance drywaller to work along with you. He would know where to cut to remove large sections and give you room to work without a lot of hassle. That would speed things up dramatically.

Yeah, thats exactly what I said, or meant earlier. It seems like the fastest, least expensive option. Probably the best option since wireless won't work for your situation.

Set · Post by **Set** » Tue Nov 12, 2002 6:19 pm

Originally posted by RoundEye
Well think what you want, every year we get bonuses depending on how well, we as an employee performed and how well the company has done. They usually range from 1 to 6 grand each person.

Another thing my boss does, is pay you no matter what. I've gotten full checks even when I haven't worked for a whole week. Even though we have sick time and vacation time at work, it's never used against us.

One lady had a very tragic thing happen in her life and he paid her for two months, even when he wasn't sure if she was coming back, and she's in the 80K salary range.

I like my boss, I think he's a fair person and I'm willing to work hard for him.

And to be honest, as long as I get paid, I'll do whatever it takes to get the job done, short of cleaning bathrooms.

Sounds like a great job and a awesome boss ther hope to find something as nice

RoundEye · Post by **RoundEye** » Wed Nov 13, 2002 8:13 am

Originally posted by poptom
RoundEye,
Since you have to get into the walls, perhaps you can engage a freelance drywaller to work along with you. He would know where to cut to remove large sections and give you room to work without a lot of hassle. That would speed things up dramatically.

Did a couple of test holes, not as hard as I thought it would be. Drilled at an angle through the wall into the firebreak.

On the interior wall I used the "nut and string" method and it worked pretty good.

The exterior walls have insulation, took a little work to get the fish tape through, but it worked out in a timely fashion.

We also arranged the outlets a little better, we set them slightly offset of each other on both sides of the interior walls. This way one drop could service two rooms.

Kalrog · Post by **Kalrog** » Wed Nov 13, 2002 1:08 pm

I still don't envy you and this project, but I am glad to hear it is going better than expected *knocks on wood*

poptom · Post by **poptom** » Wed Nov 13, 2002 4:19 pm

Sounds like you've got a good routine going.

Fiberglass can get to be a nuisance if it wraps on the drill bit, though.

RoundEye · Post by **RoundEye** » Wed Nov 13, 2002 7:33 pm

Originally posted by poptom
.......Fiberglass can get to be a nuisance if it wraps on the drill bit, though........

....that and the damn nails!

We got a little too close to a stud and the bit caught a nail. Wasted a $48 bit instantly. I went home and got my dremel and a couple of files, worked on the bit some and it was good as new afterwards. It might not hold it's edge as long now, but it'll last long enough to get this job done.

Amigaborg · Post by **Amigaborg** » Thu Nov 14, 2002 2:52 am

Well...you have a rough one here. Actually those cross braces are called firestops. To get around the firestops you can drill or cut holes in the drywall above and below the firestops and drill a hole at an angle through the firestop itself and thread the cables through. Try to thread as many cables through a single hole as much as possible and rout around to workstations behind or under baseboards etc remembering not to exceed recommended cable lengths. You also have to refill the holes with recommended firestop foam in order to maintain the integrity of the system. Going through the second floor is drilling a hole through the 1.5" cement with as few holes as possible most likely by using a switch hub to pass a single line between floors. In other words, run one cable from first to second floor into switch on second floor. The telephone lines are a no brainer...can use telephone over cat5 lines. Just carefully diagram the topology of your system. You may have to drill more than one hole through the slab and you can also look for plumbing and heating chases between floors and use those spaces without drilling any holes at all. And there are also holes in place for electrical wiring which could be generous enough to accomodate an extra cable.