Why is the U.S.A. debating evolution?

[downhill]

Let's have a civil discussion about this. No smearing the religious and no smearing the scientific crowd.

Anyway, one would have thought that the debate for most people, ended in the Scopes trial in 1925.

Your thoughts?

[David]

Let's have a civil discussion about this. No smearing the religious and no smearing the scientific crowd.

Anyway, one would have thought that the debate for most people, ended in the Scopes trial in 1925.

Your thoughts?

There is really no debate. Creationism is at odds with evolution. It is either Adam and Eve or mutation and natural selection.

[downhill]

There is really no debate. Creationism is at odds with evolution. It is either Adam and Eve or mutation and natural selection.

What about the few who think that it's possible that it's both? In a retorical sense?

[David]

What about the few who think that it's possible that it's both? In a rhetorical sense?

Anyone with a religious upbringing and an education in the sciences with have to find their own way to manage it. I have read and listened to quite a few hybrids of the two, some better than others. A person's selection often based on comfort level. Strict atheism has us as spiritual orphans, with no divine presence to serve as a guide. Religion offers its own precepts that are beyond reproach. You have the comfort of an eternal soul and constructs by which a society can function, but is the "history" genuine? Is it all but a litany of parables to explain the unknown to the ignorant minds of the past?

[downhill]

You have the comfort of an eternal soul and constructs by which a society can function, but is the "history" genuine? Is it all but a litany of parables to explain the unknown to the ignorant minds of the past?

Something I've always considered to be sure. I've often thought that there really wasn't any reason for G_d to be in a hurry.

As to teaching what, I figure let religion teach what they like in Sunday School and let public schools at least teach scientific "theroy". I have no problem with some states requiring a "this is a theroy" at the beginning of an evolution chapter. I think that most kids are smart enough to understand what a "theroy" is in the first place but if fundamentalism is running rampant in a state, then is isn't that big a deal to satisfy those who don't subscribe. to it.

As to teaching intelligent design...imho, that isn't the mandate of public education.

[Meggie]

just my opinion, but Im seeing a huge changover in this country.. seems for a while it was becomming more liberal in general.. now its flying over to the conservative side in a very non gradual way. Probably just a political sway thats going to happen throughout history..

Seems that with conservatism comes religion as its partner. I think 8 years ago, the general public would be apalled at the thought of losing abortion rights and the introduction of the patriot act, and would be more likely to accept gay marriage. Yet now, it seems to be more and more of a reality. Personally i dont like religion mixing with politics or schools. (just my opinion)

I think public schools should teach evolution in science class just like everything else scientific, church or synagogue or temple or mosque can teach whatever form of "creation" that its specific religion teaches. I think this country is beginning to form less of the "melting pot type of mentality and is getting further and further into a majority vs minority mentality". Honestly i dont think something more extreme like excluding people who arent christian, making laws based on christianity (already happening) or even making medical decisions based on it is that far off in this country. We are setting the framework needed to start hating people who arent in the majority (christianity). I would hate to see a religious war start in this country, i think history proves that it doesnt take much to make it occure.

Again, just my 2 cents.

[David]

Something I've always considered to be sure. I've often thought that there really wasn't any reason for G_d to be in a hurry.

As to teaching what, I figure let religion teach what they like in Sunday School and let public schools at least teach scientific "theory". I have no problem with some states requiring a "this is a theory" at the beginning of an evolution chapter. I think that most kids are smart enough to understand what a "theory" is in the first place but if fundamentalism is running rampant in a state, then is isn't that big a deal to satisfy those who don't subscribe. to it.

As to teaching intelligent design...imho, that isn't the mandate of public education.

The semantics of the word "theory" is often the linchpin to the creationist argument. Where is the proof that the Bible is wholly factual? In addition and as we have learn by our communications, who's perspective? In its defense, revisionists are fond of bending history to suit their credo. If the Bible is a testament to past occurances, it should be given its measured due.
The danger is not in who is smart enough to figure it for themselves, but those who are not.

[Blisster]

everybody know that the flying spaghetti monster created the universe!
http://www.venganza.org/

[thepieman]

everybody know that the flying spaghetti monster created the universe!
http://www.venganza.org/

All praise to Him his most holy Pasta-ness. *Bow head in Prayer*
May your Sauciness never be of Ragu

[Blisster]

May you be forever touched by his noodly appendage.

[Jim]

All praise to Him his most holy Pasta-ness. *Bow head in Prayer*
May your Sauciness never be of Ragu

Another Child has been touched by His Noodly Appendage. Help us bring in a new era of love and a worldwide following of Pastafarians willing to shed marinara sauce for what they believe.

[cho]

Another Child has been touched by His Noodly Appendage. Help us bring in a new era of love and a worldwide following of Pastafarians willing to shed marinara sauce for what they believe.

Waddling Garlic Bread Sprite > flying spaghetti monster

Seems that with conservatism comes religion as its partner. I think 8 years ago, the general public would be apalled at the thought of losing abortion rights and the introduction of the patriot act, and would be more likely to accept gay marriage. Yet now, it seems to be more and more of a reality. Personally i dont like religion mixing with politics or schools. (just my opinion)

I agree and I pretty much agree with everything else you posted so far. Evolution should be taught in public schools. Creationism can be taught in Private schools whether they are Catholic,Christian,Islamic, Jewish or Flying Spaghetti Monstrism. If Creationism is introduced into Public school then so should all other religious human development "theories".

I think the gyre is moving back towards religion now which is why Creationism has more supports now then it did before. When the gyre starts to move back the other way I'm sure we'll see many reversals.

[Meggie]

Waddling Garlic Bread Sprite > flying spaghetti monster



I agree and I pretty much agree with everything else you posted so far. Evolution should be taught in public schools. Creationism can be taught in Private schools whether they are Catholic,Christian,Islamic, Jewish or Flying Spaghetti Monstrism. If Creationism is introduced into Public school then so should all other religious human development "theories".

I think the gyre is moving back towards religion now which is why Creationism has more supports now then it did before. When the gyre starts to move back the other way I'm sure we'll see many reversals.

whose this "maggie" person that u quoted?

[YARDofSTUF]

I'm always interested by how religous people throw out evolution.

With all this talk about diseases evolving, mutated genes being carried from generation to generation, its hard to see how that could have happened. And in a debate on the topic most act liek teh word evovle shouldnt be a word. Evolution is scientific and has a right to be taught in public schools, religion should be left for private schools AND a elementary student's grade point average should not be affected by religion grades.

[David]

Ahhhhh.... discourse.

[Ghosthunter]

I am not sure why the debate...public education is suppose to be about secular education


If people want to teach about adam & eve, or that we came from aliens, the parents should teach it or place their kids in a private school that teach that.

[Shagster]

I was raised a bit bias so I don't know much about evolution. Not to say that I rule it out. I just don't know the facts.

Anyway. Here are the 4 base creationist theories that I was taught...

Thiestic Evolution....God created the earth and let it evolve to it's current state. This theory believes in everything from big bang, old earth, evolution, God.

Day/Age Theary...(This is what I believe to be true)...The 7 days of creation were actually 7 ages. This theory believes in old earth, big bang, God; But not evolution.

Literal Interpretation...God created the universe in 7, 24 hour days. It does not believe in old earth, big bang, or evolution.

Gap Theory...On the outs, if it isn't gone already. Believes that inbetween Genesis 1:1 and 1:2, when lucifer sinned, God destroyed the universe and recreated it.


They tried to raise me to be a Literal Interpreter. Yet I could never hear any logical proof to make me disbelieve we live on a ollllddd earth and that the universe was not begun by a big bang. I recieved a low grade in my Bible class for believing this.

*EDIT* As for the scopes trial. It was a disaster. It was rigged to be pro creation and it turned into a mess.

[ub3r_n00b]

Alright here I go.

First off, religion has no place in schools what-so-ever. You can do whatever you want in your private schools, at home or at church on sundays but Public Schools are a safe environment where no one should be subjected to religious bias. We all agree on this I believe.

Evolution basically goes like this: God, or something.. created SOMETHING. Through the slow decay of time that "something" adapted to its environment to become a more elite predator, or to survive. Survival of the fittest. As its environment suffered vast vicissitudes, those species must adapt to the changes to survive - therefor they must evolve.

That is essentially it - organisms adapting to their environments is evolution. What is being taught in schools is basically saying that there once existed a parent species, in which sub species have evolved from. There is living proof of this today! I am sure if you look at the wolves in Russia and compare them to the wolves in Canada they are different - but they are the same species. The wolves basically adapted to their environments. Same for birds and many other things. What basically happens is that based on scientific research, we begin to group these species together in a hiearchy and say "look, these properties of species x are inherited from species y and they look really similar, do the same thing.. blah de blah, so these species may have evolved from species y".

Evolution simply makes sense, there is a rediculous amount of concrete evidence behind hit, and there is a rediculous amount of common logic behind it! We are not the center of the universie (believe it or not). There existed animals before us, and there will exist animals after us (they may be human like - but they wont be the humans we know today).

The fact of the matter is that I don't know what we were given to start with, nor do you, or if there was even a start. However, evolution basically tracks the steps of beings as far back as possible. I am not saying there is no god because I really dont know. I mean, we must have started with something right? There must be a beginning and there must be an end... then again there are certain limitations of what the human mind can endure.

....




Preet

[Joel]

First off, religion has no place in schools what-so-ever. You can do whatever you want in your private schools, at home or at church on sundays but Public Schools are a safe environment where no one should be subjected to religious bias. We all agree on this I believe.

I'm just curious what the for-fathers would say about this. I don't know if anyone here recalls, but America was founded on the Bible, and belief in God. Why then doesn't religion, which this country was founded on, have a place in schools?

Another thing about Creationism/Evolutionism in schools - School is manditory, and public school is cheap. Most families can't afford private schools, in which case everyone here agrees that they should have evolutionism shoved down their throats? It doesn't seem fair to me.

My personal problem with evolution lies within it's base, and that is that life had to of evolved from random mutations of crap. To this I say "You have got to be out of your freaking mind." (no offense).

Right, so, I believe in evolution to an extent, for example, wisdom teeth - We used to need them for chewing nuts or whatever, but now that we don't have to do that anymore, they're going bye-bye. Why? It's called intellegent design. God created amazing creatures, ones that adapt to their surroundings and needs.

Forcing evolution as the beggining of life in public schools is very biased.

[Ghosthunter]

I'm just curious what the for-fathers would say about this. I don't know if anyone here recalls, but America was founded on the Bible, and belief in God. Why then doesn't religion, which this country was founded on, have a place in schools?

It was not founded on the bible...in fact most of our forefathers including Jefferson were Deists.

I am not sure where anything in the declaration or constitution mentions the bible.

Thomas Paine said "I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish church, by the Roman church, by the Greek church, by the Turkish church, by the Protestant church, nor by any church that I know of. My own mind is my own church."

[downhill]

random mutions of crap?

Dunno....I thought the basis of life was in very murky water, not crap.



Joel, the flip side. Are you suggesting that science be tossed out and only theology be taught?

Remember, evolution isn't being taught as fact but as theory. That's why it's called the "theory" of evolution.

[Izzo]

I'm just curious what the for-fathers would say about this. I don't know if anyone here recalls, but America was founded on the Bible, and belief in God. Why then doesn't religion, which this country was founded on, have a place in schools?

Another thing about Creationism/Evolutionism in schools - School is manditory, and public school is cheap. Most families can't afford private schools, in which case everyone here agrees that they should have evolutionism shoved down their throats? It doesn't seem fair to me.

My personal problem with evolution lies within it's base, and that is that life had to of evolved from random mutations of crap. To this I say "You have got to be out of your freaking mind." (no offense).

Right, so, I believe in evolution to an extent, for example, wisdom teeth - We used to need them for chewing nuts or whatever, but now that we don't have to do that anymore, they're going bye-bye. Why? It's called intellegent design. God created amazing creatures, ones that adapt to their surroundings and needs.

Forcing evolution as the beggining of life in public schools is very biased.

And I would argue the opposite ....

this is a never ending debate

how can a divine being then create all of this and people in his own image and then sit back and watch the killing, disease and suffering...for what? to see how we manage?.. a sort of test ?

this i don't understand and i never will ... I was born in to a Irish Catholic family and went to church often when i was younger ...the more i went to church the more i wanted to stay away as i just couldn't swallow what i was hearing.

[ub3r_n00b]

I'm just curious what the for-fathers would say about this. I don't know if anyone here recalls, but America was founded on the Bible, and belief in God. Why then doesn't religion, which this country was founded on, have a place in schools?

Another thing about Creationism/Evolutionism in schools - School is manditory, and public school is cheap. Most families can't afford private schools, in which case everyone here agrees that they should have evolutionism shoved down their throats? It doesn't seem fair to me.

My personal problem with evolution lies within it's base, and that is that life had to of evolved from random mutations of crap. To this I say "You have got to be out of your freaking mind." (no offense).

Right, so, I believe in evolution to an extent, for example, wisdom teeth - We used to need them for chewing nuts or whatever, but now that we don't have to do that anymore, they're going bye-bye. Why? It's called intellegent design. God created amazing creatures, ones that adapt to their surroundings and needs.

Forcing evolution as the beggining of life in public schools is very biased.

No its Not. Keep your religious crap out of public schools. I don't care what religion you practice but know that others practice other religions and should not be subjugated to that crap. Who cares what your fore-fathers have to say - guess what its the 21'st century. Your nation is dependant on immigration. Look at california! If the latinos were to stop working for a day they would utterly shut down california. This is no longer a white and black world, it is multicultural. You have to keep in mind other peoples cultures especially in creating a public service (a service that everyone pays equally for).

Why are we out of our mind? Tell me, please give me concrete evidence that we could not have evolved from apes? On top of that - prove to me that your god exists. I mean concrete proof.

You can't can you? Exactly. Thats right, I dont know and neither do you. Evolution is the only thing that makes some sense out of what we have. It doesn't make sense for there to be an erratic beginning of time, plus we have proof that the world is millions of years old - you think people were randomly hiding in all that time? You think that god was like hmmmf.. now seems like a good time to invent people.. lets do it.

Your logic is flawed - but so is mine, but atleast mine makes a bit more sense.

[Joel]

Your logic is flawed - but so is mine, but atleast mine makes a bit more sense.

Thank you.

In reply, prove to me that we did evolve from murky water. Like you said, you can't, and I can't prove mine either. You have to experience God for yourself.

To you your theory makes more sense, to me mine does. This is why the debate will never end.

On a side note, in reply to one of your paragraphs, I believe that the earth was here, however it was void of life, for millions of years before the seven day creation period. This explains rock formations of whcih are millions of years old.

[Joel]

Joel, the flip side. Are you suggesting that science be tossed out and only theology be taught?

Remember, evolution isn't being taught as fact but as theory. That's why it's called the "theory" of evolution.

Not at all, however, I am suggesting that there be some choice. Public school is, for the majority, the only school to which parents can afford to send their children. However, they have no choice on whether their children learn the evolution theory or the creation theory. That's not fair to the parents.

And, they cleary don't make it known that evolution is theory in most schools. They teach it as if it was the only possible explination for everything.

Besides that, I thought science was about fact.

[tao_jones]

I am not sure why the debate...public education is suppose to be about secular education

When I was in high school there a form that my parents could sign if they didnt want me taught evolution. I think the kids that parents signed it had a studay hall hour instead of class. That seemed to work pretty well.

[ub3r_n00b]

It doesn't make logical sense. According to the laws of physics - energy can not be created or destroyed - nor can matter really. Matter can be transformed into energy and effectively be "destroyed" but it still was matter and was transformed into something else.

It just does not make any logical sense for there to be humans randomly.. say about 3000-4000 years ago, especially when there is proof of primitive humans (homo erectus, neanderthals) which prove that humans evolved from apes. We have living proof of this.. George W. Bush!


(booo hisss.. yes i know it was below the belt but could you blame me? It had to be done..)

Can't believe I didn't think about the neanderthals but.. boom.. there is your proof of evolution.

Of course we didn't evolve from mud, that is just stupid. So that is where evolution fails, but no one knows how the hell the earth started and when the hell there existed life forms. As I said before evolution just makes ties for all the information that we have.

Whales have vestigial fingers and such - I remember reading somewhere that our ancestors may have been descendants of the whales ancestors or something - but that is far fetched.

Evolution is basically a big ass puzzle where you just put the peices togther - its logical brilliance. Science isn't about fact. Science's role in society is to make sense of the world. To understand this mess that was handed to us.

[downhill]

Not at all, however, I am suggesting that there be some choice. Public school is, for the majority, the only school to which parents can afford to send their children. However, they have no choice on whether their children learn the evolution theory or the creation theory. That's not fair to the parents.

And, they cleary don't make it known that evolution is theory in most schools. They teach it as if it was the only possible explination for everything.

Besides that, I thought science was about fact.

Joel, parents can't teach their kids, intelligent design? Do the parents also encourage their kids to take up theology in their local churches? Mine did and my kids did too. If there isn't a church close, then why can't you teach your own kids this other theroy?

_____---------_______-------

On to another serious note here for the members.

Let's keep this civil. No flaming. If it's too hard to discuss without getting mad, then please just back out of said thread.

[LitomoSilver]

Not at all, however, I am suggesting that there be some choice. Public school is, for the majority, the only school to which parents can afford to send their children. However, they have no choice on whether their children learn the evolution theory or the creation theory. That's not fair to the parents.

And, they cleary don't make it known that evolution is theory in most schools. They teach it as if it was the only possible explination for everything.

Besides that, I thought science was about fact.

So did I. Until I read this. Sure, I've gone to church, but I've never really liked churches. They never really give you good answers do they? Have you ever gone to Confessions and...oh I don't know, ask for help on a really complicated problem and they give you an I don't know answer? Has that ever happened? Probably and I'd say most often. Science is all about facts...and religion? Religion is...in my opinion, based on ideas. Nothing but ideas. Then again, there's some factual basis in Religion. Maybe that's the conflict?

[Spammy]

Here is my opinion.
I believe religion should be taught at home, and not in school. Becuase if religion was taught in school everything would be considered a "theory". If religion is to be taught it shouldn't be labled a theory, it should be labled as truth, cause that is what we believe it to be. (christians that is)

I've always respected to scientific part of everything but not always agreed with it. I have no problem with them teaching the scientific part of evolution becuase, like previously mentioned the kids should make there own decision.

If the parents are good parents, they will teach there kids to make to make that correct decision. I presonally push the religious aspect to my kids cause I want them to be saved and to live the right way. and I'm not saying that scientific part of teaching is wrong.

[De Plano]

I'm just curious what the for-fathers would say about this. I don't know if anyone here recalls, but America was founded on the Bible, and belief in God. Why then doesn't religion, which this country was founded on, have a place in schools?

Another thing about Creationism/Evolutionism in schools - School is manditory, and public school is cheap. Most families can't afford private schools, in which case everyone here agrees that they should have evolutionism shoved down their throats? It doesn't seem fair to me.

My personal problem with evolution lies within it's base, and that is that life had to of evolved from random mutations of crap. To this I say "You have got to be out of your freaking mind." (no offense).

Right, so, I believe in evolution to an extent, for example, wisdom teeth - We used to need them for chewing nuts or whatever, but now that we don't have to do that anymore, they're going bye-bye. Why? It's called intellegent design. God created amazing creatures, ones that adapt to their surroundings and needs.

Forcing evolution as the beggining of life in public schools is very biased.

Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God] believe that any portion of power confided to me, will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly; for I have sworn upon the altar of god, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. But this is all they have to fear from me: and enough, too, in their opinion.

-Thomas Jefferson to Dr. Benjamin Rush, Sept. 23, 1800

History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes.

-Thomas Jefferson to Alexander von Humboldt, Dec. 6, 1813.

The whole history of these books [the Gospels] is so defective and doubtful that it seems vain to attempt minute enquiry into it: and such tricks have been played with their text, and with the texts of other books relating to them, that we have a right, from that cause, to entertain much doubt what parts of them are genuine. In the New Testament there is internal evidence that parts of it have proceeded from an extraordinary man; and that other parts are of the fabric of very inferior minds. It is as easy to separate those parts, as to pick out diamonds from dunghills.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, January 24, 1814

Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814

In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Horatio G. Spafford, March 17, 1814

If we did a good act merely from love of God and a belief that it is pleasing to Him, whence arises the morality of the Atheist? ...Their virtue, then, must have had some other foundation than the love of God.

-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Thomas Law, June 13, 1814

Among the sayings and discourses imputed to him [Jesus] by his biographers, I find many passages of fine imagination, correct morality, and of the most lovely benevolence; and others again of so much ignorance, so much absurdity, so much untruth, charlatanism, and imposture, as to pronounce it impossible that such contradictions should have proceeded from the same being.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Short, April 13, 1820

To talk of immaterial existences is to talk of nothings. To say that the human soul, angels, god, are immaterial, is to say they are nothings, or that there is no god, no angels, no soul. I cannot reason otherwise: but I believe I am supported in my creed of materialism by Locke, Tracy, and Stewart. At what age of the Christian church this heresy of immaterialism, this masked atheism, crept in, I do not know. But heresy it certainly is.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, Aug. 15, 1820

Man once surrendering his reason, has no remaining guard against absurdities the most monstrous, and like a ship without rudder, is the sport of every wind.

-Thomas Jefferson to James Smith, 1822.

And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerve in the brain of Jupiter. But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors.

-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823

It is between fifty and sixty years since I read it [the Apocalypse], and I then considered it merely the ravings of a maniac, no more worthy nor capable of explanation than the incoherences of our own nightly dreams.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to General Alexander Smyth, Jan. 17, 1825

[Ghosthunter]

Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God] believe that any portion of power confided to me, will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly; for I have sworn upon the altar of god, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. But this is all they have to fear from me: and enough, too, in their opinion.

-Thomas Jefferson to Dr. Benjamin Rush, Sept. 23, 1800

History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes.

-Thomas Jefferson to Alexander von Humboldt, Dec. 6, 1813.

The whole history of these books [the Gospels] is so defective and doubtful that it seems vain to attempt minute enquiry into it: and such tricks have been played with their text, and with the texts of other books relating to them, that we have a right, from that cause, to entertain much doubt what parts of them are genuine. In the New Testament there is internal evidence that parts of it have proceeded from an extraordinary man; and that other parts are of the fabric of very inferior minds. It is as easy to separate those parts, as to pick out diamonds from dunghills.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, January 24, 1814

Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814

In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Horatio G. Spafford, March 17, 1814

If we did a good act merely from love of God and a belief that it is pleasing to Him, whence arises the morality of the Atheist? ...Their virtue, then, must have had some other foundation than the love of God.

-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Thomas Law, June 13, 1814

Among the sayings and discourses imputed to him [Jesus] by his biographers, I find many passages of fine imagination, correct morality, and of the most lovely benevolence; and others again of so much ignorance, so much absurdity, so much untruth, charlatanism, and imposture, as to pronounce it impossible that such contradictions should have proceeded from the same being.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Short, April 13, 1820

To talk of immaterial existences is to talk of nothings. To say that the human soul, angels, god, are immaterial, is to say they are nothings, or that there is no god, no angels, no soul. I cannot reason otherwise: but I believe I am supported in my creed of materialism by Locke, Tracy, and Stewart. At what age of the Christian church this heresy of immaterialism, this masked atheism, crept in, I do not know. But heresy it certainly is.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, Aug. 15, 1820

Man once surrendering his reason, has no remaining guard against absurdities the most monstrous, and like a ship without rudder, is the sport of every wind.

-Thomas Jefferson to James Smith, 1822.

And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerve in the brain of Jupiter. But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors.

-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823

It is between fifty and sixty years since I read it [the Apocalypse], and I then considered it merely the ravings of a maniac, no more worthy nor capable of explanation than the incoherences of our own nightly dreams.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to General Alexander Smyth, Jan. 17, 1825

Nice work De Plano ! =)

Just as I was saying earlier but you clarified a lot better

[ub3r_n00b]

Fix reason firmly in her seat, and call to her tribunal every fact, every opinion. Question with boldness even the existence of a God] believe that any portion of power confided to me, will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly; for I have sworn upon the altar of god, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. But this is all they have to fear from me: and enough, too, in their opinion.

-Thomas Jefferson to Dr. Benjamin Rush, Sept. 23, 1800

History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes.

-Thomas Jefferson to Alexander von Humboldt, Dec. 6, 1813.

The whole history of these books [the Gospels] is so defective and doubtful that it seems vain to attempt minute enquiry into it: and such tricks have been played with their text, and with the texts of other books relating to them, that we have a right, from that cause, to entertain much doubt what parts of them are genuine. In the New Testament there is internal evidence that parts of it have proceeded from an extraordinary man; and that other parts are of the fabric of very inferior minds. It is as easy to separate those parts, as to pick out diamonds from dunghills.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, January 24, 1814

Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814

In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Horatio G. Spafford, March 17, 1814

If we did a good act merely from love of God and a belief that it is pleasing to Him, whence arises the morality of the Atheist? ...Their virtue, then, must have had some other foundation than the love of God.

-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Thomas Law, June 13, 1814

Among the sayings and discourses imputed to him [Jesus] by his biographers, I find many passages of fine imagination, correct morality, and of the most lovely benevolence; and others again of so much ignorance, so much absurdity, so much untruth, charlatanism, and imposture, as to pronounce it impossible that such contradictions should have proceeded from the same being.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to William Short, April 13, 1820

To talk of immaterial existences is to talk of nothings. To say that the human soul, angels, god, are immaterial, is to say they are nothings, or that there is no god, no angels, no soul. I cannot reason otherwise: but I believe I am supported in my creed of materialism by Locke, Tracy, and Stewart. At what age of the Christian church this heresy of immaterialism, this masked atheism, crept in, I do not know. But heresy it certainly is.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, Aug. 15, 1820

Man once surrendering his reason, has no remaining guard against absurdities the most monstrous, and like a ship without rudder, is the sport of every wind.

-Thomas Jefferson to James Smith, 1822.

And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerve in the brain of Jupiter. But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors.

-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823

It is between fifty and sixty years since I read it [the Apocalypse], and I then considered it merely the ravings of a maniac, no more worthy nor capable of explanation than the incoherences of our own nightly dreams.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to General Alexander Smyth, Jan. 17, 1825

wow.. thats some pwnage if I have ever known it.

Preet

[Zilog B]

I see that science has already won a small battle. For a long time religion has claimed that evolution is a farce. Now they accept evolution, but say that it is god work (i.e. intelligent design). Just as people slowly accepted that the earth is not flat, or that the earth is not the center of the solar system.

[YARDofSTUF]

**** these posts got long!

[David]

My personal problem with evolution lies within it's base, and that is that life had to of evolved from random mutations of crap. To this I say "You have got to be out of your freaking mind." (no offense).

Right, so, I believe in evolution to an extent, for example, wisdom teeth - We used to need them for chewing nuts or whatever, but now that we don't have to do that anymore, they're going bye-bye. Why? It's called intellegent design. God created amazing creatures, ones that adapt to their surroundings and needs.

Forcing evolution as the beggining of life in public schools is very biased.

First, Let us ALL avoid ad hominems, there is no need for hard feelings.

Why do you believe that mutations with natural selection (a change occurs, if it favorable to the creature in its particular environment, it lives)?

As for you wisdom tooth example, we still chew. It is actually a disadvantage to have teeth that are typically impacted and lead to infections.

If G-d created all these amazing creatures, how would intelligent design explain extinction?

To teach evolution is no more biased than to teach physics. It is unfortunate that orthodox religion still remains as a roadblock to scientific endeavours. Let us hope that new medical cures might develop elsewhere that eventual we might benefit.

[cho]

God created amazing creatures, ones that adapt to their surroundings and needs.

And that is Evolution. Darwins survival of the fittest.

[David]

"I want to know His (G-d's) thoughts, the rest are just details" - Albert Einstein

[triniwasp]

Really simple, if you think god created the universe about 10k years ago in 7 days and nights your a god damned idiot... end of story.

[cho]

[quote="Meggie"]whose this "maggie" person that u quoted? ]

That was me typing with my Canadian accent.