Problems adding hard drive as a 'slave'

vizman · Post by **vizman** » Sun Jun 27, 2004 8:55 pm

I own a Dell Dimension 4550 Desktop (2.4 Gigahertz, 80 gig harddrive). I am trying to add another 120 Gig harddrive (Seagate Ultra ATA/100). It is 7200 rpm and 8MB Cache. I have tried a number of different ways to set it up, but my computer does not recognize it. My computer manual instructs that the harddrives are setup as 'cable select' - with the end of the cable = master drive, middle of the cable = the slave. I have setup both drives to be 'cable select' (jumper on second of 4 pins from the left). No luck. The software that comes with the Seagate does not detect the drive. I tried going into the OS Setup to setup AUTO for the primary 1 (vs. primary 0) - and it does not detect the harddrive. The system works fine, just no 2nd harddrive. There is a troubleshooting suggestion with the Seagate instructions to place a jumper on the capacity limiting pins (farthest right) - this is for computers that do not support high-capacity drives. Not sure if this applies here. I also tried setting up the drives w/Master and Slave jumper settings - still no luck. Any ideas? thanks in advance.

vizman

mccoffee · Post by **mccoffee** » Sun Jun 27, 2004 10:20 pm

Seagate instructions to place a jumper on the capacity limiting pins (farthest right) - this is for computers that do not support high-capacity drives. Not sure if this applies here yes that applies there Also did your try upgrading the dell bios??

brembo · Post by **brembo** » Sun Jun 27, 2004 10:39 pm

Just tell the drive it's an "indentured servant". The whole "slave" thing might upset it.

Put the jumpers on the original drive to "master" the jumper on the new drive to slave and stick em on the same IDE ribbon cable. Master first(the connector in the middle of the ribbon) and the slave on the end connector. That outta get ya rockin. Cable select is kinda hokey sometimes.

mccoffee · Post by **mccoffee** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 1:30 am

brembo wrote:Just tell the drive it's an "indentured servant". The whole "slave" thing might upset it.

Put the jumpers on the original drive to "master" the jumper on the new drive to slave and stick em on the same IDE ribbon cable. Master first(the connector in the middle of the ribbon) and the slave on the end connector. That outta get ya rockin. Cable select is kinda hokey sometimes.

esepically with westren digitals

vizman · Post by **vizman** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 8:05 am

Thanks for the feedback.

So it is correct to place the MASTER in the middle of the cable - and the slave on the end (setting the jumpers respectively) ?! I haven't tried that one. My Dell manual says it uses cable select - I guess that is why. If you think this will work, its worth a try. This is about the LAST thing I haven't tried (besides the capacity limiting pin). Also- updating the BIOS... Do I get that from the DELL website?

thanks again, pros.

vizman

The Dude · Post by **The Dude** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 8:30 am

If you use the master slave jumper settings it doesn't matter which drive goes where. Should be a sticker on the drive showing the jumper settings. Some drives require 2 jumpers if they are a master with a slave, so double check before you put it all back in.

mccoffee · Post by **mccoffee** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 11:18 am

yes you get the bios from dell make sure you read the directions carefuully i don't know if that will help this promblem it might but the new bios may help with perfromance..

Forgetful · Post by **Forgetful** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 3:57 pm

Cable Select requires a "special" cable to work. It's not really that special but requires pin 28 to be grounded which i think most are nowadays. The limiter is to limit the drive to 30 Gig for systems which don't recognise drives larger than this but seeing you are running an 80 Gig this can't apply to yours. You didn't mention whether the drive was new.......... is it possible it's faulty? Have you tried connecting it solely as the master to see if it's recognised by the bios?

Ken · Post by **Ken** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 4:05 pm

Larger hdd are sometimes not recognized by windows. If you are sure of jumper settings, then go to http://www.seagate.com/support/disc/dri ... scwiz.html and get the correct disk wizard...

(If cable select, the master should be on the last connection of the IDE ribbon, which should be either a different color or be marked as master...) However, I always set the jumpers on the hdd...

Post by **YeOldeStonecat** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 4:26 pm

BIOS limitations...
Way back in the late Pentium, early Pentium II days, the barrier for BIOS to recognize hard drives was 8.4 gigs.

Jump ahead to the latest barrier, in the late PIII early P4 days...the barrier is 137 gigs.

His rig is quite new, shouldn't have that issue, and his hard drive is only 120 gigs, so definitely shouldn't be the issue. Also if it's a size limitation, the BIOS and OS usually still see the drive, just not in its entirety.

My preferred solution if adding a second drive would be to have the 2nd hard drive on my secondary IDE controller anyways, for performance reasons. Slave it to your cd-rom. Sharing the same controller with it will hurt your transfer rate of large files.

mccoffee · Post by **mccoffee** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 5:56 pm

Jump ahead to the latest barrier, in the late PIII early P4 days...the barrier is 137 gigs.

Yeold i new the new machines were limited but I forgot how much was the limitation point.

mccoffee · Post by **mccoffee** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 6:32 pm

http://support.dell.com/filelib/format. ... eid=r59793 this sounds like you

The following changes have been made to the A05 to create A06: 1. Fixed IDE cable type detection problem which may cause IDE drive failures. 2. Fixed intermittent missing 2nd virtual CPU on HyperThreading processors. 3. Fixed boot problem with the Bonzai USB Mini Disk. 4. Disable USB floppy boot if Diskette A: is set to "Not Installed". 5. Update support for newer Processors. 6. Added voltage alert message at POST when CMOS battery is removed.

vizman · Post by **vizman** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 6:38 pm

I have the wizard from Seagate and its not very helpful. Interesting idea of just putting in the NEW DRIVE (Seagate) and see if it is recognized. Might try that (although i'm getting TIRED of plugging/unplugging the cables.)
The Dell manual instructs to use Cable Select - so I assume its cable is for Cable select. I might try just installing the NEW harddrive (120 Gig) and see if it is recognized. This will indicate if the BIOS will recognize it at all. Worth a shot. I'll keep you updated. Please feel free to add anything new.

p.s. I didn't understand the performance issue? how else can I connect it other than using the cable that splits the hard drive? I already have a DVD and CD RW.

thanks again

Vizman

mccoffee · Post by **mccoffee** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 7:05 pm

the dvd as master and the hard drive to slave on the primary when hooking the the primary channel up you need the hd as slave or your boot up on cdrom might not work right.

the cdrw on master the hard drive on secondary channels

Post by **YeOldeStonecat** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 7:19 pm

mccoffee wrote:http://support.dell.com/filelib/format. ... eid=r59793 this sounds like you1. Fixed IDE cable type detection problem which may cause IDE drive failures.

Huh...has a problem detecting the ribbon cable type...LOL..that's a new bug I've not seen before!

vizman · Post by **vizman** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 7:25 pm

Just to repeat:
I can hook up the NEW harddrive (120 Gig) as a slave to either my DVD-RW or CD-RW. I would have to set the jumper to slave for the harddrive... If the cable is specifically cable select - will it matter if I set the drive jumpers as master / slave - rather than cable select?

I have lots of questions. I'll be turning this thing off now and trying just to see if the new hdrive will boot by itself. thanks.

vizman

Post by **YeOldeStonecat** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 7:36 pm

vizman wrote: If the cable is specifically cable select - will it matter if I set the drive jumpers as master / slave - rather than cable select?

No, I do that all the time. Matter of fact I usually only use Master/Slave, because CS can be fidgety. Not all things get along well by themselves, just like in real life, you have to grab them by the throat, smack them around, and force them to do what you want!

vizman · Post by **vizman** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 7:42 pm

I'll save force as my final resort - when I chuck the thing!

Changing the NEW Drive as the primary and leaving the old hd disconnected - the computer could not recognize the new drive. It may be a BIOS issue. However, I was using the cable select jumper setting (which the OLD drive was using). Maybe the NEW drive requires MASTER to be used (although in the included instructions it indicated the sytem may require cable select - so this should answer that question). I will attempt to look up an update for the BIOS.

thanks

all this and the thing just may be crap.

vizman

vizman · Post by **vizman** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 8:02 pm

After reviewing some information about updating the BIOS for my computer - I have uncovered some problems others have had doing this (monitor trouble among other things). I DO NOT want to invite trouble - especially when I'm not sure what the h*** I'm doing! The only other things I have not tried are setting the capacity-limiting jumper (which shouldn't be an issue for a 120 Gig drive) I'm not clear if I should put BOTH the slave AND capacity-limiting jumpers on, or just cover the capacity-limiting pin. Anyways, the bios MAY hold the key - but I'm skittish. In the SETUP, it has nothing about SLAVE - only primary 0 and primary 1 for the drives. This may be okay; dunno. Anyhow, I'm looking to the experts for any final constructive thoughts (that'd be you, maybe)... besides 'chuck the thing'

thanks once again.

vizman

mccoffee · Post by **mccoffee** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 8:07 pm

primary is 0 or master 1 is slave or secondary

Actully they are trying to get ridd of the master and slave term to primary and secondary to be politically correct

The bios isn't as hard as you think

capacity-limiting jumper leave that off for now i don't think it is your issues i thought eailier it was but as yeold said it's 131 limit

vizman · Post by **vizman** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 8:21 pm

I could update the bios - there are several ways. Saving it to several floppys or straight to the hard drive as an exe. I did the later, but then read it should be run by experienced users only. Not a good ring to that. So whats with the floppys? I download to several floppys then what? Boot from the floppys? Not really user friendly, to be honest .... and I'm a computer programmer by profession. I'll be the first to admit that TECHNICAL aspects of computers are not my strong suit.

mccoffee · Post by **mccoffee** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 8:25 pm

The best way is floopy however the exe does make it eaiser just remember though you do the windows exe you have nothing running in the backgound when updating the bios there is some people that said don't do it in windows to the turth i never had a promblem when i did it that way..

The Dude · Post by **The Dude** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 9:00 pm

vizman wrote:I have the wizard from Seagate and its not very helpful. Interesting idea of just putting in the NEW DRIVE (Seagate) and see if it is recognized. Might try that (although i'm getting TIRED of plugging/unplugging the cables.)
The Dell manual instructs to use Cable Select - so I assume its cable is for Cable select. I might try just installing the NEW harddrive (120 Gig) and see if it is recognized. This will indicate if the BIOS will recognize it at all. Worth a shot. I'll keep you updated. Please feel free to add anything new.

p.s. I didn't understand the performance issue? how else can I connect it other than using the cable that splits the hard drive? I already have a DVD and CD RW.

thanks again

Vizman

Cable select only works on an 80 wire 40 pin IDE cable. If you have an older (slower) 40 wire 40 pin IDE cable you have to use the master slave jumpers. You should have the 80 wire cable so either way will (should) work.
Only one device, master or slave , on an IDE channel can be accessed at a time. The other must wait it's turn. You may want to put your hard drives on separate channels so you can use both at the same time. If you copy a lot of cd's it makes more sense to put your burner on a separate channel than your cd-rom or DVD.

vizman · Post by **vizman** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 9:10 pm

The Dude wrote:Cable select only works on an 80 wire 40 pin IDE cable. If you have an older (slower) 40 wire 40 pin IDE cable you have to use the master slave jumpers. You should have the 80 wire cable so either way will (should) work.
Only one device, master or slave , on an IDE channel can be accessed at a time. The other must wait it's turn. You may want to put your hard drives on separate channels so you can use both at the same time. If you copy a lot of cd's it makes more sense to put your burner on a separate channel than your cd-rom or DVD.

Dude - 'splain this to me. By putting hard drives on a seperate channel- do you mean a different cable? So, for example, the DVD would be the primary and the NEW HARDDRIVE the secondary for one cable.. while the OLD HARDDRIVE is the primary of the other cable, with the CD-RW the secondary?
I am not familiar with 'channels', but I'm guessing this is what you are talking about. if that is the case - I may need to purchase new cables because they are not long enough to do this.
thanks Dude.

Viz

The Dude · Post by **The Dude** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 9:27 pm

vizman wrote:Dude - 'splain this to me. By putting hard drives on a seperate channel- do you mean a different cable? So, for example, the DVD would be the primary and the NEW HARDDRIVE the secondary for one cable.. while the OLD HARDDRIVE is the primary of the other cable, with the CD-RW the secondary?
I am not familiar with 'channels', but I'm guessing this is what you are talking about. if that is the case - I may need to purchase new cables because they are not long enough to do this.
thanks Dude.

Viz

Yes, your PC should have two IDE channels, primary and secondary. And each channel can have up to two devices. One cable per channel for the two devices, one master and one slave. The hard drives need an 80 wire 40 pin IDE cable to get there full ata-100 or ata-133 speed. Slower devices like your CD-rom and DVD drives can use a 40 wire 40 pin cable. If you are going to put a hard drive on each channel you will need two 80 wire 40 pin ultra DMA IDE cables. Be careful with the length. If you go longer than the recommended 24 inches you could run into data errors.

vizman · Post by **vizman** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 9:42 pm

Thanks again, Dude. this all sounds good - except for one small detail. The DELL user guide instructs to use the same cable - so by their measure, it should work. I know my existing cables are not long enough to reach from dvd to harddrive, so I'll have to put that option off for the short term. In the meantime, I've emailed both Seagate and Dell support for some answers of their own. I'll keep you posted. thanks again.

vizman

vizman · Post by **vizman** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 9:47 pm

mccoffee wrote:The best way is floopy however the exe does make it eaiser just remember though you do the windows exe you have nothing running in the backgound when updating the bios there is some people that said don't do it in windows to the turth i never had a promblem when i did it that way..

I tried updating the BIOS using the DELL A08 (lastest version) - the floppy versoin. it created the floppy just fine, but it errored out when i tried to boot from it! so much for that avenue, for right now.

thanks

vizman

mccoffee · Post by **mccoffee** » Mon Jun 28, 2004 10:08 pm

Try the windows one it shouldn't cause any promblems

Forgetful · Post by **Forgetful** » Tue Jun 29, 2004 2:37 am

A lot of information and i'm not sure if i've got this right but has the drive actually been recognised at all in any configuration? If it isn't as a single drive then it could still possibly be a jumper error. Is it possible to just hook it up to another, maybe a friend's computer, to try it? Other than that i would never advise a bios update to someone who hasn't tried it before....... especially having never tried the Dell one myself, although windows bios updates seem to work fine. On a more basic level can you actually feel the drive spinning up?

vizman · Post by **vizman** » Tue Jun 29, 2004 7:29 am

Forgetful wrote:A lot of information and i'm not sure if i've got this right but has the drive actually been recognised at all in any configuration? If it isn't as a single drive then it could still possibly be a jumper error. Is it possible to just hook it up to another, maybe a friend's computer, to try it? Other than that i would never advise a bios update to someone who hasn't tried it before....... especially having never tried the Dell one myself, although windows bios updates seem to work fine. On a more basic level can you actually feel the drive spinning up?

I do know that it is warm (from power supply) - but I have not tried listening to it, no. I guess that is next. The closest I was to having the computer recognize it is when I installed it in my computer as master - without the original harddrive attached. The BIOS could recognize it was a 120 GIG drive - but it would not boot up... probably because I didn't have a boot disc. so it MAY work if I had a boot disc (which I tried creating throught the Seagate softward, but that bombed on the 2nd disc). HOWEVER - I WANT this drive as the secondary. Does this tell you enough about wether it works or not: recognizing the size of the harddrive?

funny note: i received my feedback from Dell, obviously outsourced. Direct quote: "We want our customer service makes you smile!"

jeez

they just sent me an online link to the manual I already have. not smiling yet.

Vizman

The Dude · Post by **The Dude** » Tue Jun 29, 2004 8:30 am

Have you tried the Seagate with no jumpers?
According to this page Seagate ATA jumper settings you use no jumpers if the drive is a slave.
Something else to keep in mind is, even if the drive shows up in the BIOS you will have to go into disk management and add it to your system before it will show up in my computer. That is if you are using an NT os like 2k or XP.

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Tue Jun 29, 2004 9:56 am

The Dude wrote:Have you tried the Seagate with no jumpers?
According to this page Seagate ATA jumper settings you use no jumpers if the drive is a slave.
Something else to keep in mind is, even if the drive shows up in the BIOS you will have to go into disk management and add it to your system before it will show up in my computer. That is if you are using an NT os like 2k or XP.

I'd try that with only the new harddrive and optical drives (CD-RW and DVD) hooked up.

Also, may be a stupid question, but did you make sure the power cable was connected securely?

The Dude · Post by **The Dude** » Tue Jun 29, 2004 4:10 pm

vizman wrote:Thanks again, Dude. this all sounds good - except for one small detail. The DELL user guide instructs to use the same cable - so by their measure, it should work. I know my existing cables are not long enough to reach from dvd to harddrive, so I'll have to put that option off for the short term. In the meantime, I've emailed both Seagate and Dell support for some answers of their own. I'll keep you posted. thanks again.

vizman

It should work either way. It's not a big deal if the two drives are on the same channel, not for normal day to day stuff anyway. I have my two harddrives mounted in two of my 5.25 bays. That's one way to get them close to your cr-rom, DVD so the cables reach. I did it because I wanted to use a hard drive bay cooler. I have a raid card so I have 4 IDE channels to play with. I have everything on it's own channel. I have to admit it's a bit of an overkill though for what I do on my PC.

Forgetful · Post by **Forgetful** » Tue Jun 29, 2004 6:11 pm

The fact that it boots up on it's own suggests that the problems lies with either a faulty cable, (tried swapping with the other IDE cable just to test)?..... or more likely incorrect jumpering. If you are sure the slave setting is right the look closely at the other drive and make sure the jumpers aren't set to single drive. Other than that i'm running out of ideas but keep posting the results and i'm sure the SG collective can figure it out.

vizman · Post by **vizman** » Tue Jun 29, 2004 9:52 pm

Snuf wrote:I'd try that with only the new harddrive and optical drives (CD-RW and DVD) hooked up.

Also, may be a stupid question, but did you make sure the power cable was connected securely?

power cable tight and secure. In regards to not setting a jumper - that IS the slave setting - no jumper. I've tried every conceivable configuration short of the capacity limiting jumper. It seems we have established it is not necessary for drives with only 120GB. I received a great deal on this Seagate hd and it is rated as one of the quieter Hdrives, so I'd like to make it work. The one big possiblity left is the BIOS upgrade, if I could get it to work. But as mentioned, I am VERY hesitant to do something that may really screw my computer up. I haven't heard from Seagate yet, and Dell has only provided links to obsolete sites. Their email support has been responsive, but a little lacking in timely DATA.

NOTE: I have the A04 version of BIOS. Dell has an upgrade for A08. The A06 version has the following note under it's FIXES sectoin: 1. Fixed IDE cable type detection problem which may cause IDE drive failures. **perhaps this is in reference to the problem I may be having?? Again. Help on the BIOS upgrade and the risks. I'd rather get a new Hdrive than risk screwing up my system. Whats the odds? thanks again

the link below is the source for my comments above..look under the FIXES AND ENHANCEMENT section half a page down.

http://support.dell.com/filelib/Format. ... &Type=BIOS

vizman

mccoffee · Post by **mccoffee** » Tue Jun 29, 2004 10:42 pm

vizman wrote:power cable tight and secure. In regards to not setting a jumper - that IS the slave setting - no jumper. I've tried every conceivable configuration short of the capacity limiting jumper. It seems we have established it is not necessary for drives with only 120GB. I received a great deal on this Seagate hd and it is rated as one of the quieter Hdrives, so I'd like to make it work. The one big possiblity left is the BIOS upgrade, if I could get it to work. But as mentioned, I am VERY hesitant to do something that may really screw my computer up. I haven't heard from Seagate yet, and Dell has only provided links to obsolete sites. Their email support has been responsive, but a little lacking in timely DATA.

NOTE: I have the A04 version of BIOS. Dell has an upgrade for A08. The A06 version has the following note under it's FIXES sectoin: 1. Fixed IDE cable type detection problem which may cause IDE drive failures. **perhaps this is in reference to the problem I may be having?? Again. Help on the BIOS upgrade and the risks. I'd rather get a new Hdrive than risk screwing up my system. Whats the odds? thanks again

the link below is the source for my comments above..look under the FIXES AND ENHANCEMENT section half a page down.

http://support.dell.com/filelib/Format. ... &Type=BIOS

vizman

That's what i've been saying all along that is your fix just flashed it though windows with nothing running in the background when upgrading the firmware or bios you would be fine

vizman · Post by **vizman** » Fri Jul 02, 2004 9:20 pm

I upgraded my Bios to A06... still no dice. Seagate suggested I try the capacity limiting jumper.... I'll try this (although we pretty much eliminated the possibility). This don't work and I'm taking the thing back. brother

vizman · Post by **vizman** » Sat Jul 03, 2004 9:55 pm

Thanks everyone. Sent the drive back today. Learned something though. Supposedly, SEAGATE drives are one of the few that do not come w/software that 'tricks' older computers into thinking the drives are smaller - thus allowing older computers to recognize the drive. I would of traded my drive in for another one just to cancel the possibility of a faulty drive - but I would of lost my $40 rebate. no thanks. If anyone has suggestions of the best 120 Gig drive you can get for around $70 bucks, let me know.
thanks

vizman

mccoffee · Post by **mccoffee** » Sat Jul 03, 2004 9:57 pm

Your computer wasn't that old though

Mark · Post by **Mark** » Sat Jul 03, 2004 10:21 pm

just wondering if you tried SP1 for windows XP to fix this issue ?