Problem just outside my ISP's network

Beelzebub · Post by **Beelzebub** » Thu Feb 20, 2003 9:24 am

I have Comcast cable near Detroit, Mich.. For approx. the last 2 weeks, my gaming has gone to crud, and to some extent my web surfing and downloading has suffered also. After running some tracerts over more than a week, I kept finding a seemingly consistent problem. I did call comcast support yesterday, and after talking to a friendly and fairly on-the-ball tech for quite a while, he agreed on the source of my problem. But, he said since it was out of their network there was nothing they could do, except he would see if they could contact the owners of the seemingly faulty router (at&t ?)...

So anyhow, I'm wondering if y'all can help confirm the source of the trouble, and offer any advice or help. I assume all I can do is wait it out. But geez, if it is a bad router station, how long does the problem take to be recognized and fixed? - I mean it's already been about 2 wks.!

Details:

The hop that is in question - [usually #8 for me] -
>> tbr2-p013002.cgcil.ip.att.net [12.122.10.113]

Here's a trace i just ran that looked ok:

Tracing route to google.com [216.239.35.100]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

1 1 ms 1 ms 1 ms 192.xxx.xx.x
2 10 ms 10 ms 11 ms 10.61.xxx.x
3 10 ms 10 ms 10 ms 172.30.161.209
4 12 ms 12 ms 10 ms 172.30.161.250
5 11 ms 10 ms 10 ms 68.42.244.50
6 12 ms 10 ms 10 ms 12.119.243.37
7 11 ms 10 ms 12 ms gbr2-p30.dtrmi.ip.att.net [12.123.139.34]
8 18 ms 18 ms 16 ms tbr2-p013002.cgcil.ip.att.net [12.122.10.113]
9 20 ms 18 ms 16 ms ggr2-p390.cgcil.ip.att.net [12.123.6.37]
10 16 ms 18 ms 18 ms dcr1-so-3-3-0.Chicago.cw.net [208.175.10.93]
11 73 ms 74 ms 73 ms dcr2-loopback.SantaClara.cw.net [208.172.146.100]
12 73 ms 73 ms 75 ms bhr2-pos-0-0.SantaClarasc3.cw.net [208.172.156.214]
13 74 ms 71 ms 74 ms csr01-ve241.sntc03.exodus.net [216.33.153.188]
14 74 ms 75 ms 74 ms google-exodus.exodus.net [64.68.64.210]
15 73 ms 73 ms 73 ms 216.239.48.58
16 74 ms 76 ms 76 ms 216.239.47.166
17 73 ms 73 ms 74 ms google.com [216.239.35.100]

But 99% of the time, they look like this:

Tracing route to google.com [216.239.35.100]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

1 1 ms 1 ms 1 ms 192.xxx.xx.x
2 10 ms 10 ms 11 ms 10.61.xxx.x
3 9 ms 10 ms 11 ms 172.30.161.209
4 9 ms 9 ms 11 ms 172.30.161.250
5 9 ms 11 ms 10 ms 68.42.244.50
6 11 ms 11 ms 11 ms 12.119.243.37
7 12 ms 10 ms 12 ms 12.123.139.34
8 * * * Request timed out.
9 18 ms 20 ms 20 ms 12.123.6.37
10 17 ms 18 ms 17 ms 208.175.10.93
11 72 ms 74 ms 73 ms 208.172.146.100
12 73 ms 72 ms 77 ms 208.172.156.214
13 72 ms 73 ms 73 ms 216.33.153.188
14 73 ms 72 ms 74 ms 64.68.64.210
15 73 ms 75 ms 73 ms 216.239.48.58
16 75 ms 76 ms 76 ms 216.239.47.166
17 73 ms 72 ms 76 ms 216.239.35.100

Again, most of the time hop #8 times out, though sometimes it returns 17ms pings, and sometimes nasty ones like 1400 ms... It seems most of my traffic is running through this hop, because (virtually, if not actually) all of the gaming servers and such I connect to are subject to this problem.

Thanks in advance for your time and help.

Kip Patterson · Post by **Kip Patterson** » Thu Feb 20, 2003 10:18 am

The router in question is most likely not the source of you gaming problems.

Routers on major circuits such as this one handle normal traffic using ASICs (Application-Specific Integrated Circuits), and the router CPU has little if any involvement.

When you run a tracert it sends a series of ICMP packets with the TTL set to 1,2,3, etc. Each router in the path decreases the TTL count by one. When it gets to zero, the router discards the packet and should send a new ICMP packet back to the originator saying that the original packet was dropped. It is these reply packets that tracert interprets to show you the path.

When a packet is dropped and a reply packet is generated the router CPU has to get involved. Bad things can and do happen at this point. To beging with, a router may be configured to not send the reply. It can be configured to treat the reply as low priority. It can be configured to drop the reply if it is overloaded. Your tracerts show examples of the two latter cases.

This does not affect the true latency to the game server. Tracert is a pretty inadequate tool for measuring latency because it uses a different type of packet than normal traffic. There are no good tools to really measure the latency except for certain games that have a built-in latency measure.

Your tracerts actually a quite good. You need to look elsewhere for your gaming problem.

Kip

Beelzebub · Post by **Beelzebub** » Thu Feb 20, 2003 10:56 am

Thanks for the speedy reply.

Ok, so, where else do I look for a {packetloss} problem?

Can it be on my end?

The only thing that has changed here that i can think of, is that around the time this started to happen I added a second pc and networked it to my existing router. (though i think i set that up at least a few days proir to this problem starting) ~ So I added NetBEUI to this computer for networking {OS is win98}. Though, the second computer is not even hooked up at the moment. (The 50' cat-5e cable is hooked up to the router, but not connected at the other end.)

Also, the problem is not just with games, so it can't be their configuration. I also am experiencing sporratic slow-downs in web surfing, downloading, and stuff like shoutcast music streams being dropped or constantly re-buffering.

Any suggestions?

Thanks!

{ edit - added: }

It's been so long since I've worried about these things, heh. Am I understanding this right - that since I am getting good pings after the hop I questioned, that it means that hop really isn't a problem?

Things were so smooth after they cleared up the transition from @home, But now all of a sudden its back to latency / packetloss hell... Maybe the convergence with ATT means traffic problems for a while again...{?} ...I sure hope things improve when they bump the upstream to 256 next month.

Beelzebub · Post by **Beelzebub** » Fri Feb 21, 2003 3:47 pm

hmm - anyone else have any ideas?

So, the fact that I can get replies of 1400 ms from this hop is no possible sign of something wrong there?

I see no other signs of congestion or trouble in my traces other than from ATT (and that one specific hop). Where else might my packets be getting dropped? Can you get packetloss from routers that consistently ping below 100?

Thanks

DaveM · Post by **DaveM** » Sat Feb 22, 2003 12:31 am

If all hops "After" that AT&T hop also have Random packet loss and random high latency, but none before that AT&T server, then you could be onto an issue at that point.

Look for a hop where Packet loss and high latency begins and occurs randomly or consistently after that hop but doesn't exist before that hop.

This can help you track down where there could be an issue.

If that server is the only one that times out on responses or returns responses of 1400 MS or another high count, but no other hops after it have any degraded results, then, as Kip said, it probably isn't that hop in your routes.

V_LESTAT · Post by **V_LESTAT** » Sat Feb 22, 2003 4:27 am

welcome to the world of AT&T dont give a rat's a##

i have the EXACT same issue with my cable. it is one of the reasons i started the thread to email as many f my isp customers as i can and demand change.

As of 3 hours ago i got fed up with it.
i called tech support and after 45 min on the phone with a nice enough guy, and him talking to the "senior tech" twice. i was told according to them monitoring my lines and checking signal strength there is nothing wrong with it.
i TOLD them i am sorry i have tracert data speed test data, voice video, gaming web page loading proof of a crappy connection.
the time out is not the same spot as yours but it is an AT&T node or router.
my isp said, its AT&T and there is nothing they can do about it, and what they have been told so far is that at&t has no intention of doing anything about it, he apologised and said there really isnt anything he can do.
i understaood that. but still demanded a service tech come out and visually and electronically check my lines, and i will also show him my speed tests. which are showing exactly 1/2 my rated uploads, and normal downloads.
he said he would forward a request to the local office but he said he could pretty much guarentee that it wouldnt hapen cause all data they have shows im fine.
i said well isnt that great, i have the proof right here, in the tests ive done. but that dont mean anything does it?
so i was advised to forward all tests results to the support center where i can only assume it will get lost in the pile.

when isp's get their pipes from companies like at&t there isnt much they can do about it. but there is something that we can do.
write call email and complain complain complain. he advised me that , that would be the only way something is going to get done.

funny thing was the minute i mentioned tracerts, he started to chuckle and cut me off. he said your talking about that one hop between kansas city and texas ? i said yeah, he chuckled and said "how did i know you would say that". i said cuz ive only called about 100 times about it and how its interfering with every aspect of my cable. well, he kinda shut up and went back to saying he couldnt do anything.

so just to add fuel to my proof, i am taking the modm back ( i lease it from the ISP) and getting another one, to prove it aint the modem. then i will call some more and email more. and contact the network admin here at the local office until i get my cable back the way its suppose to be.

and that would be my advice to you.

Beelzebub · Post by **Beelzebub** » Sat Feb 22, 2003 7:32 pm

Thanks, DaveM.

V_LESTAT - good luck with it.

~ Peace ~