Why is the U.S.A. debating evolution?

[Prey521]

[quote="ub3r_n00b"]If you support the Bush Admin, then you just contradicted yourself right there. This may have to go into IM prey ]
Smartass

[ScottE]

People, please get back on track.

Don't make me edit this thread.

[url]http://www.*editedbydownhill*.com[/url]

[Prey521]

[url]http://www.*editedbydownhill*.com[/url]

ROOFLES! I remember that!

[David]

The majority of religions instruct its laity constructs that build a healthy society. If you choose to believe that divinity is farcical, that is fine, but please show some respect for those who do care. If you wish to be respected for your opinions, you must do so in kind. Brainwashing is a harsh term designed to insult, does anyone truly believe that a parent teaches a theistic religion to do their child harm? Come on!

This discussion regards evolution vs. creation. Focus on the points, rather than ad hominem assaults.

[ScottE]

ROOFLES! I remember that!

Good times.

[thepieman]

Some of the replies are way off base. If I teach my kid that 12x12=144 and stealing is bad, I guess I am brainwashing him or her. They should surpass the bs detector age and find out if stealing is bad and 12x12=144 is true for them as well as Dad? Yeah, I teach my kids year after year about life as I see it in hopes that they will have some direction. We aren't talking about racism, hatred, murder & malice here, but quite the opposite.

Find another angle as that is rediculous reasoning. Go back and read David's post about the definition of brainwashing.

And for the same token if you teach your kid that stealing is good your son will become a thief. Whats so hard to understand that it is a form of brainwashing. If you keep pounding it into a kids head that hes a winner , successful, and all other types of positive things more then likely he will become that, if you constantly say negative things , more then liekly he will become a serial killer or something else. Just because its religeon doesn't mean its any different from that type of thing. What is so hard to understand?
No one is twisting anything but you guys.

Pie

[David]

That is brain washing - teaching your kids one side of the wall and ignoring the other side. Either way in our society by the time that you hit the mid teens you begin to question your parents and think for yourself (and hopefully dress for yourself too!). Atleast in Canada this is how it usually happens... Keep in mind anything public is very secular in Canada which is the way that it should be.

Preet

Adolescence brings out rebellion regardless of the quality of the parenting. The midteen mind is making its first forays into independent adult thought, but all too often follows in line with the rest his or her peers. It is rather laughable, that so many people identify themselves as liberated thinkers when they are following another persons path.
Brainwashing, as so many think it, has a dark motive.

[ub3r_n00b]

I thought we had settled it? Evolution (despite the systemic anomaly that someone pointed out about humans having thought) is the most sound theory that we have to date. It has concrete evidence supporting it, there is no point in trying to debate that humans did not evolve. Neanderthals/Homo Erectus are proof there.

We also see that a species that transfers to a different environment alters from its parent species. Various birds show this.


<<EXTREME IMO and some predicitons here>>
Why are people thinking about teaching intelligent design instead of evolution? Simple - the bush administration is in power. He needs to gain support so he caters to the religious folk. Weak / pathetic but its working! He is just trying to brain wash the nation and then eventually claim that god told him to do this and god told him to do that - after basically enstilling these thoughts into the minds of americans.

It's all politics.

Well maybee not him, but the one that assumes his power.


What do we have to debate here?

Which should be taught over the other?

[David]

I thought we had settled it? Evolution (despite the systemic anomaly that someone pointed out about humans having thought) is the most sound theory that we have to date. It has concrete evidence supporting it, there is no point in trying to debate that humans did not evolve. Neanderthals/Homo Erectus are proof there.

We also see that a species that transfers to a different environment alters from its parent species. Various birds show this.

It is not settled, though I agree that evolution is the best and most substantiated theory we have.

[ub3r_n00b]

It is not settled, though I agree that evolution is the best and most substantiated theory we have.

Tell me how and why it is not

[David]

Tell me how and why it is not

As you already noted, there is another side to this wall. That is, those who staunchly believe the word of the Bible as purely factual, rather than allegorical.

[ub3r_n00b]

so because somebody believes in a bunch of fables, evolution is flawed? Wait, or are you saying because some people lack the ability to think for themselves so they obey the orders of a religion that has deviated amazingly far from what it stands for: because of these people this is issue is still being debated?

I can agree to that.

[downhill]

so because somebody believes in a bunch of fables, evolution is flawed?

ub3r...

Again, it's not your call. You are only human. You can neither pove nor disprove your allagations...

Besides...your rancor is pulling this subject, offtopic and into a flaming match. I can assure you, that won't happen.

Please be civil.

[ub3r_n00b]

I am. We are back on topic. Guess what - you can not disprove what I am saying either. I also corrected it in my second sentence. The first was a bit of a punt below the belt.


I think we have it settled - because people are so blinded by their faith they believe that intelligent design is the truth.

But we knew that all along. So what have we accomplished here?

[Leatherneck]

And for the same token if you teach your kid that stealing is good your son will become a thief. Whats so hard to understand that it is a form of brainwashing. If you keep pounding it into a kids head that hes a winner , successful, and all other types of positive things more then likely he will become that, if you constantly say negative things , more then liekly he will become a serial killer or something else. Just because its religeon doesn't mean its any different from that type of thing. What is so hard to understand?
No one is twisting anything but you guys.

Pie

C'mon Pie, your losing your grip here. If it is your desire to lump religious teaching from a parent and serial killers in the same context then so be it. You are saying that all learned behavior & knowledge at the hand of another human being is brain washing. I've been brainwashed into to thinking that water is wet? So What.

Quit spelling religion wrong. Did a pigeon brainwash you into to spelling it religeon


Back on topic (somewhat). I believe all thoughts and theories should be at least presented in schools.

[downhill]

I think we have it settled - because people are so blinded by their faith they believe that intelligent design is the truth.

But we knew that all along. So what have we accomplished here?

A great discussion.....imho.


You know there is a flip side to your argument. Those who do subscribe to intelligent design, would say that others are blinded by science.

My brother-in-law, makes sure to give that sermon, everytime I visit his church.

My rebuttle? I fire him up on Paul. Good fun with those willing to have an intelligent discussion without attacking.

[David]

Back on topic (somewhat). I believe all thoughts and theories should be at least presented in schools.

It is a tough call. Personally, I feel public school should concentrate on secular perspectives. Allow the home and church to mind the soul.

[ub3r_n00b]

A great discussion.....imho.


You know there is a flip side to your argument. Those who do subscribe to intelligent design, would say that others are blinded by science.

My brother-in-law, makes sure to give that sermon, everytime I visit his church.

My rebuttle? I fire him up on Paul. Good fun with those willing to have an intelligent discussion without attacking.

Of course I know there is a flipside downhill. Do you think all of those soilders fighting for Germany were all evil people, that they were all Jew killers, etc.? No not at all, they are human, we are all human. There is but one race in this world. The human race. Now if there could be but one religion, morality, then we would be in a better place. I understand that those people simply do not know better. How can you blame the uneducated really? Same case for the Germans (sorry I know bringing in Nazi germany almost always discredits your argument but I think it works here).

Preet

[ub3r_n00b]

It is a tough call. Personally, I feel public school should concentrate on secular perspectives. Allow the home and church to mind the soul.

agreed

[David]

So what have we accomplished here?

You learned that not everyone thinks as you do. Some of those folks might be correct, some might be wrong, but you may interface with them. How will you handle yourself as you do so?

[ub3r_n00b]

You learned that not everyone thinks as you do. Some of those folks might be correct, some might be wrong, but you may interface with them. How will you handle yourself as you do so?

I already knew that, I have known it for a very, very, very long time.

[David]

Of course I know there is a flipside downhill. Do you think all of those soilders fighting for Germany were all evil people, that they were all Jew killers, etc.? No not at all, they are human, we are all human. There is but one race in this world. The human race. Now if there could be but one religion, morality, then we would be in a better place. I understand that those people simply do not know better. How can you blame the uneducated really? Same case for the Germans (sorry I know bringing in Nazi germany almost always discredits your argument but I think it works here).

Preet

It is the desire of almost all proselytising religions to have their belief system be universal. I met a Calvinist who felt that was what science was attempting. He postualted that this "science" was a false religion unto itself..... You would have had a field day with him.

[David]

I already knew that, I have known it for a very, very, very long time.

[ub3r_n00b]

Guru Nanak preached that there is no sikhism, there is no islam, there is no hinduism, there is no christianity. He said that we all worship one god, the same god and that we are all equal.

Sikhism was founded on his preachings. Nanak was basically THE man. He went to the Mecca and "praised" their god, told them what he didn't like about their traditions. They told him "you can not put your feet in the direction of mecca unless you are muslim". He said "well then face my feet where mecca is not" Basically saying - dude god is everywhere.

When he was baptized a hindu (sorta forced by his parents) he refused to don the traditional necklace. He asked the priest how does this make me more holy? How does this do anything? Of course the priest just said "its tradition" and got pissed that little kid.

I recently visted Moni Karn, high in the himilayas in India, very close to the Chinese border. Moni Karn is where Nanak went to pray (he walked all the way from Punjab to Moni Karn, and then to Pakistan.. on foot... that is SOME distance). There is a hot water spring there, some what of a holy place. Now the most interesting thing is that at Moni Karn, the Hindu temple is integrated into the Sikh temple. There are also a plethora of pictures of hindu gods in the sikh temple.

Nanak was declared to be a profit (or mega religious figure) of the Hindu's (sikhism was yet to be coined) and the Muslims. When he passed away there was a great debate about how to bury him. One wanted him cremated and the other wanted him to be put in a grave. The story goes is that when the dug him up.. all that they found was a flower (because they didn't get what the hell he preached his whole life).

So Sikhism was founded on this - yet we can not even get along with people within our own religion? I mean, we have a caste system. That is more prejudice than religions or race. We dont even get along with one another! What the hell kind of religion is that? Most sikh temples advocate this as well. Khalsa is all about it. How did something so pure become so tainted? It is disguisting!

I know the pieces fit because I saw them tumble down.....

[thepieman]

C'mon Pie, your losing your grip here. If it is your desire to lump religious teaching from a parent and serial killers in the same context then so be it. You are saying that all learned behavior & knowledge at the hand of another human being is brain washing. I've been brainwashed into to thinking that water is wet? So What.

Quit spelling religion wrong. Did a pigeon brainwash you into to spelling it religeon


Back on topic (somewhat). I believe all thoughts and theories should be at least presented in schools.

Its not my desire.. its a design of the brain. The same way the 2 cute little girls were singing tunes about White Power and the Nazi's is the same way your child would learn about religion from you. Why is that so hard to comprehend? Why would I be losing my grips because the mind works like that? You tell your kid about Christianity , he will be Christian, David teaches his kid about Judaism and they will more then likely be jews later in life, another man tells his kid about hating Blacks, Latinos and Jews and he will more then likely grow up to hate those people, my sons mother is Christian and more then likely my son with her will be Christiian, My oldest son who was brought up by me without religion being pushed on him chose to try Christianity but that was his choice and not by my constantly telling him about Catholocism or Christianity being better then the other, or that one will be saved and the other damned. I let my son choose for himself if thats what he wanted. Im sure if I had constantly put into him how Catholicism was the way to go, he would be a catholic.

[Chris]

Telling you kid about Christ is NOT brainwashing, However forcing your kids to believe what you believe is brainwashing.

If the parents are good parents, they will teach there kids to make to make that correct decision. I presonally push the religious aspect to my kids cause I want them to be saved and to live the right way.

Push , force
Same thing in my book.
And what is the right way to live?
So have you chose the good parenting approach, or the brainwashing approach?
Actually throughout this thread a few people have contradicted themselves on this issue.
As for in the schools, evolution should be pulled from science classes and thrown in to a separate manditory class, " Evoligeon "
In this class Evo and creationisn could be taught, discussed and debated, with no winners or losers. A credit given for attendance and no pass or failure.
That way, because it is manditory to attend in order to graduate, each child graduating would have the tools to make an informed decision, without influence of Church, State or Parent.

[Bouncer]

I think we have it settled - because people are so blinded by their faith they believe that intelligent design is the truth.

I think you miss the point and are taking a cheap shot in the process. I doubt you can find many people who believe in intelligent design. What you DO find is a larger group of people who are distrustful of scientists and their arrogant behavior towards people who believe in the existence of a higher power of some sort.

These people use intelligent design because it's a less confrontational approach. And also, I think, because they know it spins the atheists and hard core scientific zealots up like a top.

In other words, if you're all upset and ranting about intelligent design, odds are... you're (at least partly) being played.

Regards,
-Bouncer-

[Leatherneck]

It is a tough call. Personally, I feel public school should concentrate on secular perspectives. Allow the home and church to mind the soul.

What about from a history perspective? History is merely recollect of events eyewitnessed and either written or orally communicated. The Bible surely fits that bill and has survived many attempts of abolishment throughout the ages lending it crediblity if not significant staying power.

[David]

Its not my desire.. its a design of the brain. The same way the 2 cute little girls were singing tunes about White Power and the Nazi's is the same way your child would learn about religion from you. Why is that so hard to comprehend? Why would I be losing my grips because the mind works like that? You tell your kid about Christianity , he will be Christian, David teaches his kid about Judaism and they will more then likely be jews later in life, another man tells his kid about hating Blacks, Latinos and Jews and he will more then likely grow up to hate those people, my sons mother is Christian and more then likely my son with her will be Christiian, My oldest son who was brought up by me without religion being pushed on him chose to try Christianity but that was his choice and not by my constantly telling him about Catholocism or Christianity being better then the other, or that one will be saved and the other damned. I let my son choose for himself if thats what he wanted. Im sure if I had constantly put into him how Catholicism was the way to go, he would be a catholic.

Is it brainwashing or tradition? The lessons within these traditions were meant to instruct a person in the ways of life. Compare it to how a lioness teaches a cub to hunt.

Although my children will have a formal Hebrew education, they will also learn the mechanisms of many other faithes. You have to start somewhere.

[ub3r_n00b]

What about from a history perspective? History is merely recollect of events eyewitnessed and either written or orally communicated. The Bible surely fits that bill and has survived many attempts of abolishment throughout the ages lending it crediblity if not significant staying power.

History is FLAWED. Who is there to record history? The victors. There is no such thing as a truthful history - just as there is no such thing as truth.

As for a cheap shot? I think not. You can be blinded by your faith in the same way I can be blinded by science, which I definitely am not :P.

Preet

[David]

What about from a history perspective? History is merely recollect of events eyewitnessed and either written or orally communicated. The Bible surely fits that bill and has survived many attempts of abolishment throughout the ages lending it crediblity if not significant staying power.

An excellent point, however is this not already managed in your house of worship. When they were not trying to scare the living Hell out of us with the spectre of antisemitism, Hebrew school did an excellent job of it.

[David]

History is FLAWED. Who is there to record history? The victors. There is no such thing as a truthful history - just as there is no such thing as truth.

As for a cheap shot? I think not. You can be blinded by your faith in the same way I can be blinded by science, which I definitely am not :P.

Preet

Is the earth round or flat? How many elements? What is the causative agent of AIDS? My point? Science unfortunately, has more than its share of immense egos who could not see their opinions dusted by contradicting data. Like with everything, keep an open mind.

[thepieman]

What about from a history perspective? History is merely recollect of events eyewitnessed and either written or orally communicated. The Bible surely fits that bill and has survived many attempts of abolishment throughout the ages lending it crediblity if not significant staying power.

Thats all it boils down to is that christians want to get religion back into the public school system and thats the way in, to say that Creationism is a science when we all know that it isn't. Its the bible...something that certain faiths believe to be true. Its Science class and it should be kept to scientific topics and not religeous topics. You just said the whole ball of wax...you are trying to equate the bible which is a totally religeous icon into something scientific , which is basically why people are fighting this because people are trying to mince words to ease it into the science class without coming out and admitting it. The Buddhists and other ancient religions also have scrolls and tablets dating back ages that pass the word about how their gods created the world too, so perhaps we should enter those into the science class too? The world moves around the sun on a turtles back according to some ancient religeons. Should that be taught as a scientific theory too because its based on a recollection of events as well. If creationism is ever allowed into schools , you will see everyone else pushing to get their own theories and religeous beliefs pushed too. They will all use the same reasoning thats being used for creationism now. Sun Gods, Cat Gods, Rah, Horus, and every ancient belief will need to have a fair shake at this. Time will tell.

[ub3r_n00b]

Is the earth round or flat? How many elements? What is the causative agent of AIDS? My point? Science unfortunately, has more than its share of immense egos who could not see their opinions dusted by contradicting data. Like with everything, keep an open mind.

uh is that an accord? You agreeing with my statement that you can be blinded by science or.. trying to rebute?

[David]

uh is that an accord? You agreeing with my statement that you can be blinded by science or.. trying to rebute?

Widely held theories have crumbled under the weight of discovery or changed opinon. Intellect all too often coincides with ego, hence a loss of objectivity.

[thepieman]

Is it brainwashing or tradition? The lessons within these traditions were meant to instruct a person in the ways of life. Compare it to how a lioness teaches a cub to hunt.

Although my children will have a formal Hebrew education, they will also learn the mechanisms of many other faithes. You have to start somewhere.

David
What makes a Hassidic jew a Hassidic jew? Is he born like that? Is it something he just picks up from the street? He learns this from someone of course. His parents, his relatives, his brothers and sisters, later on his rabbi, his school mates at Yeshiva....what else would he be? It is a form of brainwashing. Hassidic couple adopt a african baby (I know this would never happen but hypothetically) and is brought up as a strict hassidic jew...will he not be a hassidic jew ? Will he know that he was not a hassidic jew from birth until later in life?

[thepieman]

Its amazing how people will label these radical moslems as being "Brainwashed" from birth to be anti-american and blah blah, but if its for Christianity or Judaism its not. Their parents are doing the same thing that you are doing. Its a form of brainwashing wether you want to admit it or not.

[David]

David
What makes a Hassidic jew a Hassidic jew? Is he born like that? Is it something he just picks up from the street? He learns this from someone of course. His parents, his relatives, his brothers and sisters, later on his rabbi, his school mates at Yeshiva....what else would he be? It is a form of brainwashing. Hassidic couple adopt a african baby (I know this would never happen but hypothetically) and is brought up as a strict hassidic jew...will he not be a hassidic jew ? Will he know that he was not a hassidic jew from birth until later in life?

SEMANTICS!!!!!!!!!

You call it brainwashing. By definition, is it brainwashing? I disagree.

BTW. Are there Ethiopian Jews living in Israel?

[thepieman]

SEMANTICS!!!!!!!!!

You call it brainwashing. By definition, is it brainwashing? I disagree.

BTW. Are there Ethiopian Jews living in Israel?

yes but I have never seen a Hassid with a black kid lol

They usually have no problems pumping out 6 or 7 of their own hahahah

As far as the brainwashing goes...I remember when I was in Catholic school as a kid and Rev. Sun Myung Moon was really a hot topic...brainwashing was thrown around an awful lot when it came to that mans religion. A lot of people still to this day refer to them as Moonies.

brain·wash·ing (br&#257]The application of a concentrated means of persuasion, such as an advertising campaign or repeated suggestion, in order to develop a specific belief or motivation[/B].

In later times the term "brainwashing" came to apply to other methods of coercive persuasion and even to the effective use of ordinary propaganda.

Many people have come to use the terms "brainwashing" or "mind control" to explain the otherwise intuitively puzzling success of some methodologies for the religious conversion of inductees to new religious movements (including cults).

The term 'brainwashing' is not widely used in psychology and other sciences, because of its vagueness and history of being used in propaganda. It is often more helpful to analyze 'brainwashing' as a combination of persuasion and attitude change, propaganda, coercion, and restriction of access to information. Note that many of these techniques are more subtly used (usually unconsciously) by advertisers, governments, schools, parents and peers, so the aura of exoticism around 'brainwashing' is undeserved.

[David]

Then you understand why I am taking to task the use of the term. Its application is typically subjective.