Is this illegal?

TEH WIN · Post by **TEH WIN** » Thu Mar 13, 2003 10:37 pm

I'm borrowing one of the 80 student laptops we have at school for the weekend. They have built in wireless access cards.

My question is, is it illegal to drive around the neighborhood looking for unsecured WAPs and connect to them? how about browse their network? transfer files?

thanks

porkchop · Post by **porkchop** » Thu Mar 13, 2003 10:40 pm

I would think yes, for you have no authorization to access their network. What is different from what you are doing and what h4x0rs do?

Ghosthunter · Post by **Ghosthunter** » Thu Mar 13, 2003 10:43 pm

That is a good question

I really do not know.

Personally I think only if you do any damage.

I know for a fact that the FBI wont do anything even if you break into a network the old way, unless government run, unless you can prove at least $5,000 damage has been done.

Reason being, FBI cannot keep up, just too mauch hacking going on. It is still illegal but nothing can really be done about it.

How I know is I spoke to a few FBI agents last year, just about that and said sorry nothing we can do.

AAF Striker · Post by **AAF Striker** » Thu Mar 13, 2003 10:47 pm

I don't know ... police can listen in on cell phone calls without a warrant because of the way it is transmitted and is not ment(considered) to be private.... so I don't know... but if you did any tampering I would believe that to be illegal.

downhill · Post by **downhill** » Thu Mar 13, 2003 10:52 pm

Is it legal? dunno.....But I doubt there is a law against finding a signal though.

Is it moral? What do you think?

Brk · Post by **Brk** » Thu Mar 13, 2003 10:52 pm

Not sure if it's illegal, but it sounds like an ******* thing to do. They're not your files, so I think it's a matter of common sense and personal morality.

Zilog B · Post by **Zilog B** » Thu Mar 13, 2003 11:00 pm

Don't hack the Gibson!

Indy · Post by **Indy** » Thu Mar 13, 2003 11:07 pm

Been doing a lot of research of late in regards to wireless for work...these links might help with your question:

http://www.warchalking.org/story/2002/9/22/223831/236

http://www.embedded.com/printableArticl ... 30129S0046

http://www.wardriving.com/doc/Wardriving-HOWTO.txt

http://www.wifimaps.com/

EvilAjax · Post by **EvilAjax** » Fri Mar 14, 2003 1:46 am

Who cares if it is illegal or not. Do it!

SRF01 · Post by **SRF01** » Fri Mar 14, 2003 2:14 am

If you've gotta ask... then it probably is.

But good luck anyone catching you. Get out your pringles can.

torsten · Post by **torsten** » Fri Mar 14, 2003 2:18 am

This is 21st century America...
Anything you think might be illegal probably is.

So I agree with EvilAjax, just do it.

Blisster · Post by **Blisster** » Fri Mar 14, 2003 3:06 am

Someone in my appartment building has a WAP set up, and they don't have it encrypted. My buddy has come over once or twoce with his laptop and gotten a signal in certain parts of my appartment. We browsed the web a little and looked to see if they had any drives shared but they didn't. We did a "Netsend" message and told them to put a password on there network.
My friend hasn't had his lappy over here since then and I have a nice DSL network set up so I could care less.

more info here: http://www.freenetworks.org/

Needlefreak · Post by **Needlefreak** » Fri Mar 14, 2003 4:51 am

It's not yours ,dont use it...How'd you like it if I came over an used your 4 Runner or maybe I'll run a couple power cords from a outlet at your place over to mine..You would be pissed as all hell if someone did it to you..

BaLa · Post by **BaLa** » Fri Mar 14, 2003 5:40 am

Originally posted by Needlefreak
It's not yours ,dont use it...How'd you like it if I came over an used your 4 Runner or maybe I'll run a couple power cords from a outlet at your place over to mine..You would be pissed as all hell if someone did it to you..

yeah but does he leave his car unlocked (I hope not)

If you have a wireless laptop they need to put a key

Needlefreak · Post by **Needlefreak** » Fri Mar 14, 2003 6:52 am

Originally posted by BaLa
yeah but does he leave his car unlocked (I hope not)

If you have a wireless laptop they need to put a key

Locked or unlocked it dosent matter,the fact remains the same..IT"S NOT HIS TO USE..Stealing baaadddddddd mmmkayyyy....

deleted_acct · Post by **deleted_acct** » Fri Mar 14, 2003 7:09 am

Well some people for jobs ride around streets in front of buisnesses and try to get into the network and if they make it they tell the buisness the vulnerbilitys and the buisness pays them to fix it.

BaLa · Post by **BaLa** » Fri Mar 14, 2003 7:10 am

I see your point but It doesn't sound like he was planning on taking anything..(besides bandwith) which isn't something that gets lost

now if he messes around with files (delete/rename them or something) that would be a diff story..

but If he was just to drive around look for unsecured WAPs, browse the network then leave I see nothing wrong with that..
If I had a wireless LAN it would be secured..

Brk · Post by **Brk** » Fri Mar 14, 2003 8:05 am

I can't believe anyone on a site dedicated to networking and security like SpeedGuide would actually advocate him even just browsing anyone else's files just because he had the opportunity to. Sounds like most of you "go for it" people are teenagers or are in a situation where you haven't paid any of your own bills for any extended period of time.

Maybe I'll stop by your houses and start rifling through your drawers to see what's there but not take anything...that'd be cool with you, right? I doubt it.

While you're at it, go get one of those tester phones the phone companies use and hook it up to your neighbors' lines and leech off the service they pay for each month.

The person(s) who own unsecured WiFi may not have taken the time or gained knowledge enough to keep others from taking advantage of it, but if anything you should send them to the networking and security forums here to help them out.

BaLa · Post by **BaLa** » Fri Mar 14, 2003 8:45 am

I'm not advocating anytihng..

he asked wether (sp) or not it was illegal..

Either way I believe he will do what he wants to do..
I just gave my opinion on the matter..

The person(s) who own unsecured WiFi may not have taken the time or gained knowledge enough to keep others from taking advantage of it, but if anything you should send them to the networking and security forums here to help them out.

they should not have WIFI then..or be made aware of it/learn about it and the dangers of it..

Brk · Post by **Brk** » Fri Mar 14, 2003 8:52 am

Originally posted by BaLa
they should not have WIFI then..or be made aware of it/learn about it and the dangers of it..

to the former point, and agreement with the latter. That's why I mentioned that anyone new to WiFi should be sent SpeedGuide's way to learn more about securing it properly.

BaLa · Post by **BaLa** » Fri Mar 14, 2003 8:55 am

ok
perhaps it was stupid for me to say that (they should not have wifi)

lol..

stupid question somebody else might be able to answer.
Do WAPs and/ Wireless Routers come with some kind of info about this?..

If not
maybe it would be a good idea for companies to include a small booklet with all the neccesary information explaining the dangers and stuffs like that...

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Fri Mar 14, 2003 9:24 am

This is exactly why I lock my door, even when I am at home. I lock my truck doors, even when at work and I can see my truck from my office.

Maybe I will start leaving the door open at home, maybe someone will decide to just walk in, take a look around to see what I have that might be interesting.

BaLa · Post by **BaLa** » Fri Mar 14, 2003 9:28 am

this is completely diff..

but you can compare it what to whatever YOU want to I guess...

Scott · Post by **Scott** » Fri Mar 14, 2003 9:31 am

How the hell is it different? He asked if it was legal to log on to SOMEONE ELSE's network, and browse around! That would be intruding on someone else's property, would it not?

EDIT:
LOL, I missed the part about "transfer files". Transfer files from where to where? From their HDD to his? Wouldn't that be something like stealing?

Or is it something like Finders Keepers?

EvilAjax · Post by **EvilAjax** » Fri Mar 14, 2003 9:49 am

There's nothing wrong with that. You should have a firewall protecting your ever port... damn--that reminds me... gotta install Norton AV..

Please don't hack me... my IP is 666.69.69.666

Brk · Post by **Brk** » Fri Mar 14, 2003 10:36 am

Originally posted by EvilAjax
There's nothing wrong with that. You should have a firewall protecting your ever port...

That is the mindset of a thief..."If you're not going to 'lock your door', I'm going to come in." The absence of a firewall equals you having the right to use someone else's connection and peruse their files at your leisure?

What a stupid and irresponsible statement.

ScottE · Post by **ScottE** » Fri Mar 14, 2003 10:59 am

I'm with Burke on this one.

mountainman · Post by **mountainman** » Fri Mar 14, 2003 11:07 am

Originally posted by BaLa
they should not have WIFI then

That is like saying if someone doesn't know how to repair the engine in their car, they shouldn't have a car. Or if someone doesn't know how to fix their dishwasher, they shouldn't have one.

I can't believe anyone would actually say this.

downhill · Post by **downhill** » Fri Mar 14, 2003 11:09 am

Do you good folk suppose we could keep the attacks confined to the ideas and not the people?

Thanks.

Post by **YeOldeStonecat** » Fri Mar 14, 2003 11:19 am

Originally posted by BaLa
I see your point but It doesn't sound like he was planning on taking anything..(besides bandwith) which isn't something that gets lost

now if he messes around with files (delete/rename them or something) that would be a diff story..

but If he was just to drive around look for unsecured WAPs, browse the network then leave I see nothing wrong with that..
If I had a wireless LAN it would be secured..

I don't agree. So you're saying...if someone leaves their house unlocked....it's OK for a stranger to walk right in.....walk around the house...perhaps watch some television...as long as they don't steal anything like jewelry or money?

Wrong. I'll put someone in a world of hurt if I find them inside my house...wether I lock it, or not.

How about voyeurism? The signal of wireless can reach outside my property. Similar to leaving the curtains open and getting dressed....you're saying as long as someone remains outside of my property...they can stand and look inside my window all they want?

I see peeps saying if the owner of a car leaves it unlocked...it's OK for someone to steal it? Granted I should remove my keys from the ignition of my car when I park it somewhere...but even if I leave my keys in the ignition and my doors unlocked...it doesn't make it right for someone to hop in and steal it.

A network is private property folks....uninvited visitors are just like having someone walk into your home. Granted peeps should lock their doors, and perform security measures on their wireless networks...but if they don't...it doesnt make it right for someone to hop onto their network.

Brk · Post by **Brk** » Fri Mar 14, 2003 11:19 am

Originally posted by downhill
Do you good folk suppose we could keep the attacks confined to the ideas and not the people?

Thanks.

Well, the people are the ones espousing these ridiculous justifications for outright thievery and invasion of privacy.

BaLa · Post by **BaLa** » Fri Mar 14, 2003 11:19 am

Originally posted by mountainman
That is like saying if someone doesn't know how to repair the engine in their car, they shouldn't have a car. Or if someone doesn't know how to fix their dishwasher, they shouldn't have one.

I can't believe anyone would actually say this.

I suppose you quit reading the rest of the thread after you read that?..
you missed one of my posts after that I guess..in which I admitted I should not have said that..

ScottE · Post by **ScottE** » Fri Mar 14, 2003 11:36 am

Originally posted by YeOldeStonecat

How about voyeurism? The signal of wireless can reach outside my property. Similar to leaving the curtains open and getting dressed....you're saying as long as someone remains outside of my property...they can stand and look inside my window all they want?

Actually they can, but the argument holds no weight here as once someone is on your network they are infact on your property, and are trespassing. There is nothing to prevent someone from "seeing" if a network is there, but connect to that network in anyway shape or form and you are trespassing. So in actuality if you are "looking" for them you must "connect" to them to "find" them. It's a very thin line there between the legal and illegal.

Noevo · Post by **Noevo** » Fri Mar 14, 2003 12:11 pm

Burke, be careful. We're going to start being labeled "big brother" soon

another interesting what if? scenario. Is it legal doesn't really matter in this one to me. If it's not yours, leave it alone.

BaLa · Post by **BaLa** » Fri Mar 14, 2003 5:17 pm

I'll stand to my original post in this thread
I don't think it's stealing and I see nothing wrong with it..

you don't lock your car/wireless network, You're ASKING for trouble

Brk · Post by **Brk** » Fri Mar 14, 2003 5:20 pm

Originally posted by BaLa
I'll stand to my original post in this thread
I don't think it's stealing and I see nothing wrong with it..

you don't lock your car/wireless network, You're ASKING for trouble

True, it's asking for trouble.

But some here seem to be ADVOCATING causing it.

YARDofSTUF · Post by **YARDofSTUF** » Fri Mar 14, 2003 5:23 pm

from private homes yes it is, because ur invading their privacy. u could get hit with a bunch of different lawsuits.

Needlefreak · Post by **Needlefreak** » Fri Mar 14, 2003 5:35 pm

Originally posted by Burke
True, it's asking for trouble.

But some here seem to be ADVOCATING causing it.

All ya can do is pray it happens to them one day..Then they whine and cry bout the injustice...

JawZ · Post by **JawZ** » Fri Mar 14, 2003 9:31 pm

Allow me to chime in please.

In case you didn't know, there are sites that advocate the use of wifi networks.

In fact, they are run by wifi users!

The goal is to provide people with internet access.

So now we have people AND businesses that voluntarily ALLOW free access to their pipe to the net.

Now let me clarify something....all these people take security with the utmost seriousness. While they may allow you to bum off of their net connection via wifi, they aren't allowing people to snoop through their entire system or internal network.

One of the first wifi sites to go live was one I reported on over 2 years ago.
https://www.speedguide.net/forums/ ... ess+access

http://www.nycwireless.net/

Their goal:
Our Mission
Provide Free Public Wireless Internet Service to mobile users in public spaces throughout the New York City metro area.

So I think you all owe it to yourselves to become more aware of what is going on. We are living in the information age...and it is to the benefit of society to share access to information.

C-S wanna be · Post by **C-S wanna be** » Fri Mar 14, 2003 9:34 pm

i think its called WAR driving if someone hasnt already said it