unions are greedy and selfish.

onetrueday · Post by **onetrueday** » Wed Oct 09, 2002 5:29 am

They care NOTHING but the size of thier membership and dues collected. Inspired by the 'warez' thread.

Unions, the very 'organizations' that are meant to protect the workers. I work under a union myself, so I understand first hand. All they care about is the number of members and maintaining a VERY short term life span.

If you question my opinion, I have two examples. The dock workers on the west coast are on strike. It's already having an effect on our industry here in the us and will probably futher drag us into a recession. A good number of the paper pushing clerks make OVER 100,000 a year. Some of them make over 150,000. They are NOT high trained labor, just blue collar workers. So, what's the issue? The docks are one of the slowest and outdated in the WORLD. It's only a matter of time before companies start inporting through mexico and canada instead it's so bad. The union doesnt want technology to help speed the dock, so I imagine in less then ten years most of thier membership will BE GONE. Remember the steel industry in the us?

Another example is the post office, where I work. I read before that if the workers and supervision took a 8-10% pay cut, then the stamp could go back to 34 cents and we'd be TOTALLY out of the red. WTF! I'd take the paycut for the security!! I make 45k a year, plus benefits! The a**holes that I work with think that 5 weeks of vacation, plus 13 days of 'carrying over' sick time isnt enough. HOW MUCH IS ENOUGH THEN!!!!!!

it often seems the average union employee's motto is:

"If I drop it on the ground, it's a janitor's job to pick it up. Not my job, someone else's."

Ghosthunter · Post by **Ghosthunter** » Wed Oct 09, 2002 6:13 am

I agree, totally. The mafia, still controls and is directly tied to the unions.

in NYC, if you do construction and do not take a union contract, you will be in real deep trouble, either there will be violence towards the people who are not union, or destruction of the construction of the union site. They have no regards for anyone else for that matter., forgetting that this is America and whoever offers the cheaper service will win the contract, not because they are just in the union.

Croc · Post by **Croc** » Wed Oct 09, 2002 6:22 am

Hi Michelle. No critisism here Michelle but:
First you should research your facts for you are wrong about the Longshoremen being on strike.
From what I've read the Longshoremen were LOCKED OUT of their workplace by management (owners). They want to work and can't do so because they can't get into the port. What has happened since then may have changed the perception of the truth here but that's where it all started.

Secondly, if your experience of Unionism is that all you see is the payment of fees and no "action" from your elected delegates then maybe it's time to elect new delegates that will act.

Yes..... by now, (if you didn't already know) I am a Union Delegate and I can assure you that if any issue/problem arises that affects any of the members where I work I take the issue to management. As far as other delegates go, it is up to the members to pressure the delegates into working for them as well. I guess I am fortunate because I enjoy the arguements with management.
Am I unique? Hell no!! Just in the company I work for in Australia there are another 12 of us that stick it to our employers whenever we can.

Do you really believe that the cost of a stamp would be reduced if the Postal Workers took an 8 to 10% paycut? Doubtfull at best.

13 sick days are more than we get here. We get 8 per year and I am gratefull that they accumulate. I used them all (6 weeks) in one hit last year for recovery from a knee operation.

5 weeks annual leave. We get 4 weeks with a 17.5% loading on the holiday pay. Why? For the lost opportunity of overtime. We didn't fight for it either. The Government gave it to us in legislation.

"If I drop it on the ground, it's a janitor's job to pick it up. Not my job, someone else's." Maybe in your workplace that is normal and accepted by the workers. That's very *oldschool* and would not be accepted now.
I think we all must remember that it was our fathers and grandfathers that fought for these workers entitlements and for very good reason. It was to give job security to themselves and their offspring.

Be nice now.

Croc.

onetrueday · Post by **onetrueday** » Wed Oct 09, 2002 6:39 am

First of all, thank you for educating me on the dock workers. I got my information mostly from NPR and it's either mis-reported or I mis-understood.

I guess my problem with unions really comes from the discontentment of my fellow works. I have an excellant job with fantastic benefits. I am thankful EVERY DAY that I am so blessed to have such a fantastic job. For the most part, the union has been there for me. Yet, the most of the people that I work with are ungrateful and entirely selfish. They'll stop working and call the union over at the smallest disagreement. They act like children, or worse.

I wasnt complaining about my sick time, believe me! I am very THANKFUL that I have it!! I was very sick with lillian was born and my sick time and annual ensured that we kept the house. I think it's AMAZING that sick time can build up and ensure my future. However, once again it's abused like a sickness. People feel the four or five weeks of annual isnt nearly enough and that they are ENTITLED to call in sick once a month too. Sick time is insurance for me. It's sad though when disaster strikes, they'll be signs up with them BEGGING for people to donate annual leave.

I know sometimes we become what we hate, but it hurts that no one can ever seem happy with what they have.

Faust · Post by **Faust** » Wed Oct 09, 2002 6:52 am

unions are just like some forms of government. they exist for very good reasons - one of which is to protect and serve it's constituancy.

are they prone to corruption? very much so. are they all corrupt? no. do they still serve their purposes? yes, as long as corruption doesn't get out of hand.

unions can be very good for employees. especially within a very skilled workforce. you don't want to be say...... a Fortran coder and them find yourself vaccuuming floors half the day in order to stay employed. unions tend to either have themselves or get employers to offer benefits. better working conditions, more "worker say" in the functioning of the workplace. it's all supposed to benefit the worker.

i will admit that there are times when (from the outside) i see a particular union with a LOT of power. they get bent out of shape because they want a (for instance) 25% pay increase and the corporation will only give them $15. these people earn on average $80,000+ per year! if that union has the power to shut down, say....... 85% of the overland shipping in the US, they have what i consider to be too much leverage and are guilty of what boils down to extortion...... but of the american people rather than just the corporation. they wanna wreak havoc with just their employers that's just fine by me. but when they start letting their influence go outside those borders..... i cry foul.

in summary.......... unions are good, for the most part. IMO, of course.

YARDofSTUF · Post by **YARDofSTUF** » Wed Oct 09, 2002 7:20 am

unions are good if good ppl are in control. i'm a union worker and my union doesnt help the workers much cuz we have alot of lazy and worthless ppl in them, but were taking care of that.

one thing the union does give the workers are great benefits, well worth the now 34 somethign a month

Croc · Post by **Croc** » Wed Oct 09, 2002 7:23 am

Putting the discontentment to bed and sorting the complaints into the good accept or delete baskets is part of the Delegate's job. If you are not getting that.... elect new delegates. Just by this action alone, you and your co-workers are sending a message to wanna-be delegates that you are not going to put up with the way things were done.

Sick time is abused because it is given to the employee as a right.
Under the Award we work under, an employee who goes sick for 1 day must supply a Doctor's Certificate. If the same person has what we refer to as a "two day option", the Award states we do NOT have to have a Doctor's Certificate. I effect that can give you a Friday and a Monday off without proof of being sick. Long weekend coming up. I can feel it LOL

Side note, Michelle. You posted your income. You may find it interesting that I earn under 1/2 that, after factoring the rate of exchange so I will guard whatever right/benefit we get.
We have Income Protection Insurance as well and this is funded by the company to all factory employees. We pay this back by reducing our breaks for a few minutes. That (the insurance) was going to be thrown out at the last agreement talks. The arguement was? It cost the company too much.

Probably too, you may not see a lot of what goes on until you are involved yourself. A lot of the work done by a delegate is 1 on 1 after a complaint. Usually it can be sorted.

Unions do have their place in this world. They are the workplace peacemakers/ the watchdog with Safety issues/ the negotiators and a lot more.
I think there should be a wage paid for doing it. J/k

Enough of this. I have a bed waiting and it's past my bedtime.

Have fun.

Croc.

Croc · Post by **Croc** » Wed Oct 09, 2002 7:31 am

Originally posted by YARDofSTUF
unions are good if good ppl are in control. i'm a union worker and my union doesnt help the workers much cuz we have alot of lazy and worthless ppl in them, but were taking care of that.

one thing the union does give the workers are great benefits, well worth the now 34 somethign a month

Good luck with taking care of those problems, YoS.

Hey... Our fees are higher than yours. Not fair. Hmmph!!
I'm going to complain to me when I get me to work tomorrow. Not fair, YoS, Not fair at all.

Croc.

YARDofSTUF · Post by **YARDofSTUF** » Wed Oct 09, 2002 7:39 am

Originally posted by Croc
Good luck with taking care of those problems, YoS.

Hey... Our fees are higher than yours. Not fair. Hmmph!!
I'm going to complain to me when I get me to work tomorrow. Not fair, YoS, Not fair at all.

Croc.

they were 25 bucks but we got an increase to rebuild the teamsters strike funds.

we also get money back for sick days we dont use.

JC · Post by JC » Wed Oct 09, 2002 8:14 am

Originally posted by onetrueday
The union doesnt want technology to help speed the dock, so I imagine in less then ten years most of thier membership will BE GONE. "

My understanding on the technology updates are barcodes, Yes barcodes is what this is about. The workers and the union Do not want barcodes?????I figured they allready had them, for years. It would seem pretty tough to keep track of that much cargo without computers

Ghosthunter · Post by **Ghosthunter** » Wed Oct 09, 2002 8:35 am

I am so glad the IT field does not have a union, or I would not be making the money I am making now, that is all I can say.

I will never forget the time I use to work at a local Pathmark when I was a teenager, and the meat union workers were on strike, because Pathmark did not give them what they want. I remember I was a cashier at the time(i had a different union), and all of the union workers who were on strike and came in and started to destroy the place, they wrecked the aisles, threw food all over, and at one point they started to throw wagons at the frond windows breaking glass all over, I just remember running out there fearing for my life.

Just recently a local home deopt was under attack by a union because they were hiring non-union workers or something like that, they came into the place and realsed some paint and chemicals, that actually closed the entire home depot down for 72 hours, because you could not breathe this stuff in or you would be in the hospital.

I thought that was ridiculous that the union would put innocent good people in a dangerous situation just because they did not get their 20% raise instead of a 15% raise, or because they would hire non-union workers.

I thought we live in America?

onetrueday · Post by **onetrueday** » Wed Oct 09, 2002 8:48 am

Originally posted by JC
My understanding on the technology updates are barcodes, Yes barcodes is what this is about. The workers and the union Do not want barcodes?????I figured they allready had them, for years. It would seem pretty tough to keep track of that much cargo without computers

that is part of it. The union wants everyone that joins the company as a result of this tech to be part of their union as well.

Seems to me it's more about protecting the union's member base then protecting jobs.

YARDofSTUF · Post by **YARDofSTUF** » Wed Oct 09, 2002 8:52 am

hiring non union workers is a huge NO in a union work place!!!

a large member base protects workers much better than a small member base.

downhill · Post by **downhill** » Wed Oct 09, 2002 8:56 am

The dock workers were NOT on strike.....they were locked out. A very different thing.

The lockout was caused by the dock workers having a slowdown, according to most of the news I read....

I do know that for the most part, the impression is that the workers are on strike. That is simply not true.

I support the ILWU. They are well paid and want to keep it that way. The situation is not a strike. It is legally a lockout. It is the employers that are refusing to allow the longshore workers access to the docks.

The issue with the longshore workers is not attempting to keep technology out. But that the operators of that new technology (which will be eliminating some jobs) be union. That is, the computer operators be ILWU.

The history of the west coast longshore is much different than that of the east coast and gulf coast. The mafia has never had its hands in the west coast union.

Remember, the problems the lockout is causing is because so called American companies have their manufacturing plants overseas and/or they are using parts from overseas. There was a time when America was self-sufficient!

It's OK for the west coast docks to use container cranes built by a subsidary of the Chinese People's Liberation Army and installed in the American ports with Chinese labor. But it is now becoming not OK to use American union labor to load and unload the containers?

My last word...

CiscoKid · Post by **CiscoKid** » Wed Oct 09, 2002 11:29 am

with the Longshoremen out here on the West Coats...it's the dock owners trying to for the longshoremen to sign a contract that DOES NOT include changes they would like such as safer working conditions and new equopment. There's a port here in Stockton, many people showed up for work as usual, but when they got there, the gates were locked and security refused to let them into work.

WhoNut · Post by **WhoNut** » Wed Oct 09, 2002 11:31 am

Originally posted by Croc
From what I've read the Longshoremen were LOCKED OUT of their workplace by management (owners). They want to work and can't do so because they can't get into the port. What has happened since then may have changed the perception of the truth here but that's where it all started.

A few words from the inside here....

The longshore workers were locked out because they slowed the job down. This was the same tactic employed in '96 and '99. This year, the employers played hardball during the negotiations by saying "you slow us down, and we'll close the doors".

The slowdown was essentially a strike with pay. A ship that normally costs us $80,000 in labor costs to work would cost $200,000. This is unacceptable, and there is nothing we can do about it, short of kicking them out the door.

They of course used safety as an excuse to work slow, claiming that the production we experienced for the last three years was not normal, but a result of a "speed-up" on their part to get the job done. A totally humorous defense if it didn't cost the employers (and the consumer in the end!) all the additional money.

Don't get me wrong...I happen to like a lot of these guys, and I think their union has made the waterfront a better place. My salary as a manager is higher than most other industries, due solely to the fact that my employees are well paid. The issue here is one of control. They were told what would happen if they slowed down, and they decided to see if we were serious. Obviously, we were.

WhoNut · Post by **WhoNut** » Wed Oct 09, 2002 11:46 am

Originally posted by downhill
The history of the west coast longshore is much different than that of the east coast and gulf coast. The mafia has never had its hands in the west coast union.

True indeed. The only issue I have with them is their mob-like tactics. There are still a lot of jobs on the waterfront that are unnecessary. If we hire fewer workers (i.e. only what we need), we get singled out and slowed down.

Remember, the problems the lockout is causing is because so called American companies have their manufacturing plants overseas and/or they are using parts from overseas. There was a time when America was self-sufficient!

Another true statement, with no easy solution. I drive a subaru. My home theater system, computer, clothing, toothbrush, clock radio, bedroom furniture, telephone, washing machine, and watch were all made in foreign countries. Hell, even my wall to wall carpeting was made in Canada. We do live in a global economy, and in this country, consumers have voted with their dollars.

Side note: If we closed the borders and consumed only American made products, there would be no longshoremen.

mountainman · Post by **mountainman** » Wed Oct 09, 2002 11:47 am

I am in the OEA/NEA which are the teachers unions for people here in Ohio. They are great. They do all of the contract negotiating and take care of issues when things go bad.

They are very good. Of course they are worried about membership and money. They can't stay alive if they don't.

You are right though when it comes to the dock workers and things like that. I am not an advocate of things like strikes because kids need an education. I think they just need to work harder at resolving issues.

Great thread, OTD.

JawZ · Post by **JawZ** » Wed Oct 09, 2002 11:59 am

Originally posted by onetrueday
They care NOTHING but the size of thier membership and dues collected. Inspired by the 'warez' thread.

Unions, the very 'organizations' that are meant to protect the workers. I work under a union myself, so I understand first hand. All they care about is the number of members and maintaining a VERY short term life span.

If you question my opinion, I have two examples. The dock workers on the west coast are on strike. It's already having an effect on our industry here in the us and will probably futher drag us into a recession. A good number of the paper pushing clerks make OVER 100,000 a year. Some of them make over 150,000. They are NOT high trained labor, just blue collar workers. So, what's the issue? The docks are one of the slowest and outdated in the WORLD. It's only a matter of time before companies start inporting through mexico and canada instead it's so bad. The union doesnt want technology to help speed the dock, so I imagine in less then ten years most of thier membership will BE GONE. Remember the steel industry in the us?

Another example is the post office, where I work. I read before that if the workers and supervision took a 8-10% pay cut, then the stamp could go back to 34 cents and we'd be TOTALLY out of the red. WTF! I'd take the paycut for the security!! I make 45k a year, plus benefits! The a**holes that I work with think that 5 weeks of vacation, plus 13 days of 'carrying over' sick time isnt enough. HOW MUCH IS ENOUGH THEN!!!!!!

it often seems the average union employee's motto is:

"If I drop it on the ground, it's a janitor's job to pick it up. Not my job, someone else's."

You make 45K a year? What is your job title....I need to look into this...seriously....that is really good. PM me if you want. TIA

CiscoKid · Post by **CiscoKid** » Wed Oct 09, 2002 12:16 pm

I guess it comes down to the field you work in. The CCPOA, my dad's Union, is one of the best in the state. Without them, correctional peace officers would be payed minimum wage with no beffitits. How would you feel if the men and women keeping the worst of the worst of society under controll in prisions were under payed and under trained?

Because of the CCPOA, the guards cannot work 24 hours at a time, which before the union had occured.

onetrueday · Post by **onetrueday** » Wed Oct 09, 2002 12:35 pm

I'm not really anti-union, I'm anti-laziness. I suppose I'm pro-company when it comes to long term growth and job security. That's my biggest problem. There are numerious examples of when a company and a union work together. However, there are also henious examples of a union and it's workers not giving a damn where the money comes from; only that they get raises for the same or LESS work throughput and effort.

It is truly amazing how ill-informed we are! I have two excellant examples. This dock lockout is a perfect one. If I didnt listen to NPR, I wouldnt have known this had happened. That is just SHAMEFUL on the part of the national media. Too busy focusing on violence to look at the real issues that SHAPE our lives.

Another example, and one that has nothing to do with this thread is pakistan and israel. If I havent been reading up on the situation and listening to NPR, I would believe that the pakistan people are horrible. I would believe that israel should keep IT'S land without question. I did not learn in school how israel was formed. I also did not learn that egypt also claimed some of pakistan for it's own, over 15% of previous pakistan land in fact.

I thank god everyday that I belong to a union. I've also come to realize that most people cant be happy no matter what situation they're in.

mikemean · Post by **mikemean** » Wed Oct 09, 2002 12:46 pm

I am a member of The United Food And Commercial Workers Local #8. My union has always been there for me whenever I had a question. In fact, they do get kind of pissed because hardly anyone shows up for the union meetings. They always tell us "We are here to work for you, that is why you pay union dues". I have no problem with my union.

Ghosthunter · Post by **Ghosthunter** » Wed Oct 09, 2002 1:24 pm

Funny no one responed to any of my posts how unions get so violent, when things dont go their way.

I guess most people support unions and their bully tactics?

terrancelam · Post by **terrancelam** » Wed Oct 09, 2002 1:52 pm

I just wanted to say, I can't see how my comments inspired what OTD said. Being morally and ethically responsble for your workers and the publc in the general doesn't mean that a company can't be efficent, it just means they aren't trying to because they won't make as much money if they just did what they wanted to, I.E use child labour, make workers sign a no overtime statement, few hours, less holiday pay, fewer sick days, over working a employee, the list goes on. Many of these things happened in the workplace because unions didn't exist, but this sure as hell doesn't constitute "laziness" on the part of the workers. It gave them fair standing with the corporations, which is what the unions are supposed to do.
As for how they are functioning or not functioning now, they still have a role to play, but its falling apart because the people just don't care about their well being anymore because they have it good.

onetrueday · Post by **onetrueday** » Wed Oct 09, 2002 1:53 pm

wait!

You didnt make me write that... it only gave me some thoughts I wanted to share. So, I hope you dont think it was a response or anything like that. Even so, I'm trying to understand all of this. There are so many angles and 'truths' that people believe. I guess I just really want to understand.

Inverse · Post by **Inverse** » Wed Oct 09, 2002 1:58 pm

I'm a member of the Grocery Union..

mikemean · Post by **mikemean** » Wed Oct 09, 2002 2:03 pm

Originally posted by Inverse
I'm a member of the Grocery Union..

I believe that would be United Food And Commercial Workers.

Oh, and I do not think my union is a bully. The last time we had a contract negotiation it went pretty smooth.

Ghosthunter · Post by **Ghosthunter** » Wed Oct 09, 2002 2:51 pm

Originally posted by mikemean
I believe that would be United Food And Commercial Workers.

Oh, and I do not think my union is a bully. The last time we had a contract negotiation it went pretty smooth.

It must be a NY only thing, maybe the mafia is only involved with NY unions, I dont know.

downhill · Post by **downhill** » Wed Oct 09, 2002 9:55 pm

Originally posted by davy19
Funny no one responed to any of my posts how unions get so violent, when things dont go their way.

I guess most people support unions and their bully tactics?

davy19, the past is loaded with DEAD bodies of those who would even think if trying to form a union...Some in the not so distant past.

In the 50's and early 60's, Ford was hiring an internal police force who's job it was to beat the living crap out of union members and organizers.

What were you saying again?

Murder vs. bully tactics...hummm...I'm trying to figure out your logic.

Deus ex Machina · Post by **Deus ex Machina** » Wed Oct 09, 2002 10:35 pm

The formation of unions and the storied Pinkertons is a classic read.

Unions became a necessity with the industrial age. Advances in transportation have the American blue collar worker competing with foreign, non-union counterparts who are making a pittance... It speaks volumes with regard to the greed of many American corporations.

I concur that unions have gone amok in a few areas. I have witnessed laziness and demands for payment when no work was done (even if was the fault of the worker himself!). The NYC electricians union might very well be the worst offender. If you have the temerity to plug a computer at an exposition that they have dominion, a "worker" may very well cut the cord claiming that the dievice might not be safe. For 110 USD, the union employee with go onsite, check the voltage and wattage requirement on the back of the device and plug it in for you.

Great thread OTD!!

shant,
david

mikemean · Post by **mikemean** » Wed Oct 09, 2002 10:48 pm

I have to re-affirm my union support. Look at my post about my boss being a total bitch. They are going to be there 100% for ME. My boss had no right to do what she did and the union agreed. That's why if there is going to be a meeting between my boss and I, my union rep will be there.

Croc · Post by **Croc** » Thu Oct 10, 2002 2:15 am

Well this has certainly opened up a great debate and I also say thanks to OTD for the inspiration to start it.

One thing that was mentioned early in the thread was the way the Unions go about negotiating an agreement and the outlandish pay and benefits that are asked for. No one has yet mentioned the equally outlandish pay and benefits that are offered by companies when they start these negotiations.
Example:

Pay claim by Union = 25% per year for 3 years.
Pay claim by Management = 3% per year for 4 years.
Union = Income Protection paid for by the company.
Management = No Income Protection.

Maybe it's timely to introduce one of Downhill's "Word of the Day" words. Its "AMBIT". That's what these claims are. Nothing more, nothing less.

Then we get to the smaller issues that have been claimed for and at the end of the day a document is presented that effectively puts us back to the start of the first day.

I flew to Melbourne no less than 5 times for 2 and 3 day meetings along with Delegates from all plants in Au and this is what happened almost every day.
What did we end up with?
5.5% per year over 3 years.
Income Protection paid for.
Protection from termination through involuntary redundancy.
Protection of overtime rights over daylabour casuals.
And a few other concessions.
Oh, and a 5 week strike sort of helped the negotiations along when it was clear there was to be no movement from the Management Team.
Without the Union we would have none of the conditions we have now and would all be on Individual Contracts. If anyone wants to read about them, copy/paste those 2 words into Google.

Thanks for the insight, WhoNut. Maybe a slowdown was what was needed to get something done. How many times were Management asked to meetings to resolve the issue/s? How much easier would it be to sit down in neutral territory and sort these issues out instead of playing hardball. All that does is get the masses stirred.

End of rant. Sorry for the length.

Croc.

onetrueday · Post by **onetrueday** » Thu Oct 10, 2002 3:32 am

I suppose part of my feelings stem from the people I work with. We do get cola(cost of living increases) and a small pay raise every contract. My question is since we get cost of living, why are we entitled to an additional pay raise if we dont get any more work done? Most jobs do carry additional wieght today and workers are more productive, that SHOULD entitle you to pay raises and increased benefits. However, at the post office that isnt happened. Co-workers expect these huge pay raises while they sit back on do nothing.

Gosh, can you tell that I was raised in a extreme christian household and that the second word I learned was GUILT?

YARDofSTUF · Post by **YARDofSTUF** » Thu Oct 10, 2002 8:46 am

Originally posted by davy19
Funny no one responed to any of my posts how unions get so violent, when things dont go their way.

I guess most people support unions and their bully tactics?

i have seen no violence with my union and i dont think its a regular thign

chevyman282 · Post by **chevyman282** » Fri Oct 11, 2002 5:43 pm

Hello to all,
This thread on union workers is very interesting, and also very enlighting to me...I am a union member, pay my dues and do my work.....
One thing I want on the job, is to come home safe and sound every day, I do not want to lose a arm, a foot, or even a toenail.

From what I understand, the Dock workers have had 5 deaths alone this year, that is 5 to many, If it takes a xtra half hour to unload a shipment, so be it,,,at least a father, son, mother or sister will be home that evening enjoying there families....

this of course is my humble opinion.....
chevyman

WhoNut · Post by **WhoNut** » Fri Oct 11, 2002 7:43 pm

Originally posted by chevyman282
From what I understand, the Dock workers have had 5 deaths alone this year, that is 5 to many, If it takes a xtra half hour to unload a shipment, so be it,,,at least a father, son, mother or sister will be home that evening enjoying there families....

No doubt, injuries and deaths on the job are senseless. I saw a longshoreman get fatally injured myself about 13 years ago, and I'll never forget it.

But here's the thing - safety wasn't an issue before contract negotiations started, and I'll bet my left arm it won't be an issue after they get a good contract.

The reason for workplace accidents are many, and too often the employer gets all the blame. In fact, we are legally liable for our employees actions while on the job. 75 years of labor laws have shielded laborers from a lot of common sense responsiblities.

Example: I can go out and tell a guy to put on his safety vest 20 times during his shift. If OSHA comes around and sees him without it, the company gets the citation, not the individual. That to me, is aggravating. I say fine the individual, and compliance will be stellar.

downhill · Post by **downhill** » Fri Oct 11, 2002 7:48 pm

Originally posted by WhoNut
No doubt, injuries and deaths on the job are senseless. I saw a longshoreman get fatally injured myself about 13 years ago, and I'll never forget it.

But here's the thing - safety wasn't an issue before contract negotiations started, and I'll bet my left arm it won't be an issue after they get a good contract.

The reason for workplace accidents are many, and too often the employer gets all the blame. In fact, we are legally liable for our employees actions while on the job. 75 years of labor laws have shielded laborers from a lot of common sense responsiblities.

Example: I can go out and tell a guy to put on his safety vest 20 times during his shift. If OSHA comes around and sees him without it, the company gets the citation, not the individual. That to me, is aggravating. I say fine the individual, and compliance will be stellar.

Big difference between them and railroad workers. If I commit a "willfull and knowing" act, I'm held accountable by the FRA. The fines are stiff. Also OSHA is getting into the act and workers are liable for a fine for not following safety outlines.

WhoNut · Post by **WhoNut** » Fri Oct 11, 2002 7:52 pm

Originally posted by downhill
Big difference between them and railroad workers. If I commit a "willfull and knowing" act, I'm held accountable by the FRA. The fines are stiff. Also OSHA is getting into the act and workers are liable for a fine for not following safety outlines.

Yes, the Longshore and Harborworker's act is very punitive to employers. I'm sure it was for a reason when it passed.

Presently though, our safety programs are driven largely due to the quest for lower insurance premiums. Some things about capitalism do work.

Ghosthunter · Post by **Ghosthunter** » Sat Oct 12, 2002 1:05 am

Originally posted by YARDofSTUF
i have seen no violence with my union and i dont think its a regular thign

In NY it is, dont cross a Union or you might just end in the hospital or worse dead.

downhill · Post by **downhill** » Sat Oct 12, 2002 1:14 am

Originally posted by davy19
In NY it is, dont cross a Union or you might just end in the hospital or worse dead.

Pics? LOL

How about a news article....

How about responding to my post about this issue? Just curious as to your real intent in this thread?

My union has been on strike once in my career..not a single act of violence. The other unions that are affiliated with the railroad I work for have been on strike maybe 10 times in my career...not a single act of violence. This is a HUGE company. With a history of violence. Mostly on the other side of the fence. Once again, I'll point out MURDER.

Are unions greedy? Of course....

Are employers greedy?....Even more so.

SG Broadband Community

unions are greedy and selfish.

unions are greedy and selfish.

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Re: Re: unions are greedy and selfish.

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well

Dock workers

Re: Dock workers

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