Should there be any question...?

CiscoKid · Post by **CiscoKid** » Wed Oct 02, 2002 11:24 am

stopped by CNN to read an article my cousin told me about and found this...

http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/Midwest/10/0 ... index.html

About 20 kids, 10 to 18 beat a man to death...what is up with kids today? Do they have NO respect for life?

They're unsure if the 9 kids they arrested would be charged as adults or not...personally, I thing because of the savage nature of the attack, they should be charged as adults...

This just makes me sick...

Police Chief Arthur Jones said about 16 to 20 young men who had gathered Sunday night prodded a 10-year-old to throw an egg at Young. The egg hit the Milwaukee man in the shoulder, and he started chasing the boy. But a 14-year-old got between the two, and Young punched him, knocking out a tooth.

Several of the youths then banded together to attack Young, Jones said. They chased him onto the porch of a house on the city's north side and pummeled him, leaving blood spattered from floor to ceiling, police said.

Blisster · Post by **Blisster** » Wed Oct 02, 2002 1:37 pm

thats just unf@cking believable

Inverse · Post by **Inverse** » Wed Oct 02, 2002 1:50 pm

I think they should be put in a mental institution until they are mentaly stable, because obviously they arn't.

Docsta · Post by **Docsta** » Wed Oct 02, 2002 2:13 pm

since the United State's justice system is the worst on the planet..i think we should take each one of those kids TOMORROW and put them all in the Louisiana gas chamber..and gas em all..

Mr King · Post by **Mr King** » Wed Oct 02, 2002 2:16 pm

Absolutely disgusting.
Those kids will most likely do a couple years at most.
I like what Docsta said.

Paft · Post by **Paft** » Wed Oct 02, 2002 2:22 pm

If the guy attacked them as the article states, then they are in no way mentally unstable.

Noevo · Post by **Noevo** » Wed Oct 02, 2002 2:24 pm

Originally posted by Paft
If the guy attacked them as the article states, then they are in no way mentally unstable.

they (several) killed someone (one person) for (one of them)being punched in the mouth = mentally unstable.

C'mon paft think for gods sake!

Mr King · Post by **Mr King** » Wed Oct 02, 2002 2:25 pm

Originally posted by Paft
If the guy attacked them as the article states, then they are in no way mentally unstable.

Did you read the article? They beat the guy to a pulp and then dragged him back outside when he tried to escape and beat him some more. If they were capable of beating him that bad then they were also capable of detaining him and calling the police. He would have gotten in a lot of trouble for assaulting a minor.

Blisster · Post by **Blisster** » Wed Oct 02, 2002 2:26 pm

it said that they threw an egg at him first, he chased the kid that did it, and another kid stepped into it. they use the word kid, but a 17 year old is fair game if he throws an egg at me or gets in between me and the one who did.
just my .02

Docsta · Post by **Docsta** » Wed Oct 02, 2002 2:32 pm

i mean gimme a break... like the bible says "An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth" The way our justice system should work should be NO APPEALS EVER... the trial should last 1, two days minimum..present the evidence, and make the decisision..all this money that is wasteing on putting guilty people on trial is a total disgrace. We should kill those that are guilty no more than a week after they murdered that innocent person. In this case..we should take all these kids.. get a bunch of pissed off Death Row inmates..give them all metal little league baseball bats, including the kids who killed that guy, and let them all beat the crap out of each other, until all of are dead..whoever is left..can experience the love of a gas chamber...

now if we had that kinda justice system..90% more people would think about commiting a crime...

I love what they do in Saudia Arabia..a guy no less that a year ago..stole a car deck out of an automobile of some kind... with NO TRIAL...like i said.. NO TRIAL..they took him into prison...they got a machette and chopped the arm off he stole with. We should implement that policy into america or else this country is gonna go to hell in a hand basket.... if you steal a candy bar..you get your hand chopped off..you steal a car receiver deck..you get your arm chopped off... yes more people would think about theft if that happened. But noooo...our stupid justice system would just fine that moron and throw him in jail for a night... and then what would he do the next day? STEAL AGAIN...EXACTLY. and then if we caught him again we would fine him..the throw him in jail for a night...so sad the usa is.

Noevo · Post by **Noevo** » Wed Oct 02, 2002 2:36 pm

trial- innocent until proven guilty - jury of your peers.

Thats the way it is Docsta and it's a hell of a lot better than what you described.

so sad your point of view is. It's barbaric. and we may not be perfect but nothing is.

cruel and unusual punishment is not a way to run a society.

Mr King · Post by **Mr King** » Wed Oct 02, 2002 2:38 pm

It doesn't change the fact that victims in this country have no rights.
Criminals are treated like victims and the actual victims are left out to dry.
That's sad.

Noevo · Post by **Noevo** » Wed Oct 02, 2002 2:42 pm

Why do I get the feeling, Mr. King, that you and Docsta have very similar thoughts? Or was that mr. white? you three share a room or somethin'?

Docsta · Post by **Docsta** » Wed Oct 02, 2002 2:44 pm

noevo i know thats the way it is genius..once again you impress me with your intelligence.

see its people like you that are gonna cause the crowding of our prisons...give a 6 month trial to someone you know who is guity..but sit there on ur ass in the jury and and in the discussion room debating over pointless evidence when all of you know that that person sitting out there is guilty...

you missed the entire point of my post...read next time how bout it?
god i feel like an elementary school teach teaching a 3 year old...ok noeve..look what i said

"the trial should last 1, two days minimum..present the evidence, and make the decisision..all this money that is wasteing on putting guilty people on trial is a total disgrace."

like i said. "THE TRIAL"

Noevo your idea of a trial is the top paragraph which is the way it is..i understand that but its stupid and ridiclulous. you idea of a trial for those kids is to let them sit in a court room for six months to a year deciding on what to do with them..only to figure out that they will be sent to jail for 2 years...you gotta be kiddin me Noevo?

Docsta · Post by **Docsta** » Wed Oct 02, 2002 2:47 pm

Originally posted by Noevo

cruel and unusual punishment is not a way to run a society.

EXACTLY...dude grow a brain.

What the hell do you think the person that was killed thinks??? THE WAY they were killed is cruel and unusual....now arent they???

Mr King · Post by **Mr King** » Wed Oct 02, 2002 2:47 pm

I believe in due process and that you are innocent until proven guilty. I don't believe being neglected as a child is an excuse to kill, steal, or commit any other crime.
I also don't believe being a child is an excuse to commit crime.
Mr. White? Are you assuming I'm white?

Docsta · Post by **Docsta** » Wed Oct 02, 2002 2:49 pm

lol king...i totally agree with King.

Noevo · Post by **Noevo** » Wed Oct 02, 2002 2:52 pm

Originally posted by Docsta
noevo i know thats the way it is genius..once again you impress me with your intelligence.

god i feel like an elementary school teach teaching a 3 year old...ok noeve..look what i said

insult in every damn thing you post. your ideas are most of the time lost because you consider everyone stupid for not subscribing to the same thoughts you do. I disagree with your ideas. Why is that a problem? I don't mind if you disagree with mine, yet you insult me for not agreeing with you.

AND SPELL MY GOD DAMN NAME RIGHT IF YOU ARE GONNA TALK ABOUT INTELLIGENCE!!! All you have to do is look next to what I posted and it's spelled out for ya. Need a frickin' picture?

Give me a good post, whether I like it or not, and do so without insulting someone, in others words - intelligently. And your ideas would have more weight and be taken more seriously.

Why is that such a problem for you?

Noevo · Post by **Noevo** » Wed Oct 02, 2002 2:53 pm

Originally posted by Docsta
EXACTLY...dude grow a brain. What the hell do you think the person that was killed thinks??? THE WAY they were killed is cruel and unusual....now arent they???

Not everyone lives by "eye for an eye" though. Can you live with that and accept it without INSULTING me? nah, didn't think so.

torsten · Post by **torsten** » Wed Oct 02, 2002 2:55 pm

It doesn't really surprise me. It's GROUP behavior. Sure, it's more extreme than you usually see, but it's the same pattern: rational thought and inhibitions of a single person dissolves into a muddled mess -- what other people think becomes paramount. The rush of power that comes from being part of something that's larger than yourself pushes the adrenaline. And it's all justified internally by the others' participation. People will do extreme things if they're part of a group that's justifying the action.

Don't kid yourself into thinking that these are just a weird bunch of psychotics who just happened to meet up one day. It's really not much different from a lot of group behavior that goes on in schools day after day. Most of the time, the victims survive (physically). In this case, it was the same disease, just a much harsher result.

So it obviously deserves condemnation. But are you gonna condemn the result or the cause?

Noevo · Post by **Noevo** » Wed Oct 02, 2002 2:55 pm

Originally posted by Mr. King
I believe in due process and that you are innocent until proven guilty. I don't believe being neglected as a child is an excuse to kill, steal, or commit any other crime.
I also don't believe being a child is an excuse to commit crime.
Mr. White? Are you assuming I'm white?

I agree with that. but that has nothing to do with anything I said.

and no I am not assuming you are white, I said Mr. white - it's another member. You three seem to show up together is all.

Mr King · Post by **Mr King** » Wed Oct 02, 2002 3:00 pm

I was just making it clear that I am not a complete radical.

"and no I am not assuming you are white, I said Mr. white - it's another member. You three seem to show up together is all."

OK, sorry for the misunderstanding. The only member of this board that I know is Poptom.

Noevo · Post by **Noevo** » Wed Oct 02, 2002 3:00 pm

Originally posted by torsten
It doesn't really surprise me. It's GROUP behavior. Sure, it's more extreme than you usually see, but it's the same pattern: rational thought and inhibitions of a single person dissolves into a muddled mess -- what other people think becomes paramount. The rush of power that comes from being part of something that's larger than yourself pushes the adrenaline. And it's all justified internally by the others' participation. People will do extreme things if they're part of a group that's justifying the action.

Don't kid yourself into thinking that these are just a weird bunch of psychotics who just happened to meet up one day. It's really not much different from a lot of group behavior that goes on in schools day after day. Most of the time, the victims survive (physically). In this case, it was the same disease, just a much harsher result.

So it obviously deserves condemnation. But are you gonna condemn the result or the cause?

I'll agree with that to an extent. but somewhere the internal governor (sorry, not sure of the correct terms) was bypassed and it went way to far. This is what I mean by their was an obvious mental instabillity. In my mind, no one who kills that easily is mentally "right".

Condem the result or cause? Condem the result and help fix the cause somehow would be the ideal thing IMHO. But i'm not sure if that could work. I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that these kids had been in trouble before. Cause? way to many possibilities.

But like you said, the group thing is big here I think. One of them may have been the "leader" and the others just did what he was doing and the problem is no one realized what could happen from what they were doing. Or did they? this is a big question to me.

Docsta · Post by **Docsta** » Wed Oct 02, 2002 3:04 pm

LOL...i wasnt insulting.you...though i do remember...you insulting mr.king and me and saying we room together in a smart ass comment...so you struck first dude..not me...

I dont care if people dont agree with me.... its just so sad how you interpret things like everyone is trying to hurt you...poor little Noevo...everyones ganging up on him. dude you really need to chill out and take a chill pill..you cant even have a discussion without cryin about something or how someone was mean to you..god..how do you survive in the real world? i think youre the one who is lost my man.

and you talk about intelligence to eh? yea it makes you look intelligent when you use God's name in vain to shoot back at someone....uh huh.

Docsta · Post by **Docsta** » Wed Oct 02, 2002 3:08 pm

anyone got some prozaq?

torsten · Post by **torsten** » Wed Oct 02, 2002 3:11 pm

Originally posted by Noevo
I'll agree with that to an extent. but somewhere the internal governor (sorry, not sure of the correct terms) was bypassed and it went way to far.

Cause? way to many possibilities.

That internal governor (as I would define it) is faulty in a big percentage of the population. I'd go so far as to say that the minute you do something (negative) in a group that you'd never do as an individual, you've crossed that line.

When I said "cause," I was referring to the groupthink itself.

And yes, of course, condemn the result as well. I should have worded that differently.

Mr King · Post by **Mr King** » Wed Oct 02, 2002 3:12 pm

Originally posted by torsten

So it obviously deserves condemnation. But are you gonna condemn the result or the cause?

You condemn the result.

YARDofSTUF · Post by **YARDofSTUF** » Wed Oct 02, 2002 3:13 pm

docsta, no apeals, come on man thats just stupid, things go wrogn, ppl sometimes need an apeal.

also it was cruel what they did, but not so unusual these days it seems :/

Mr King · Post by **Mr King** » Wed Oct 02, 2002 3:14 pm

Sorry Torsten, that was a double post.

Humboldt · Post by **Humboldt** » Wed Oct 02, 2002 3:17 pm

Wow, the idiots are out in force.

Hard case to call, but I've been in a similar egging situation and damn if I didn't want to beta the kids silly. I don't blame the man for his actions at all TO A CERTAIN DEGREE. Sounds like he didn't know when to stop though.

Sounds like he lacked the common sense to avoid a whupping ...never pick a fight with a swarm of worthless trash too stupid to know what is at risk. So young, geez. Part of me totally hopes they throw the book at them and part wishes for rehabilitation of sorts.

Docsta · Post by **Docsta** » Wed Oct 02, 2002 3:17 pm

Originally posted by YARDofSTUF
docsta, no apeals, come on man thats just stupid, things go wrogn, ppl sometimes need an apeal.

also it was cruel what they did, but not so unusual these days it seems :/

i agree with you man...im sorry let me clarify...i was only saying..if a jury of your peers has convicted you to be sent to death? why do you need an appeal if it it SO OBVIOUS that you killed these people(s)? ya know buddy? its just a total waste of time in SOME CASES

YARDofSTUF · Post by **YARDofSTUF** » Wed Oct 02, 2002 3:20 pm

Originally posted by Docsta
i agree with you man...im sorry let me clarify...i was only saying..if a jury of your peers has convicted you to be sent to death? why do you need an appeal if it it SO OBVIOUS that you killed these people(s)?...

give them the apeal, send them to a new judge the next day if its the same verdict, *BANG*

Docsta · Post by **Docsta** » Wed Oct 02, 2002 3:22 pm

but yard think about it man...look what happens in some trials...they get apeal after apeal after apeal...sometimes 7,8,9, appeals??!! thats ridiculous...waste of money too.

torsten · Post by **torsten** » Wed Oct 02, 2002 3:23 pm

And I want to add a HELL NO to the idea of bringing Saudi style punishments to the US. That's not an example of a society heading in the right direction. There are many nations (e.g. NW Europe) with low crime rates, but they don't achieve it with disgusting barbaric penalities.

The US Constitution and it's guarantee of rights for the accused ROCKS. The only problem with the US is that it doesn't educate its children very well -- including in the important matter of why those rights are so important.

Noevo · Post by **Noevo** » Wed Oct 02, 2002 3:25 pm

Originally posted by Docsta
noevo i know thats the way it is genius..once again you impress me with your intelligence.

see its people like you that are gonna cause the crowding of our prisons...

you missed the entire point of my post...read next time how bout it?
god i feel like an elementary school teach teaching a 3 year old...ok noeve..look what i said

Noevo your idea of a trial is the top paragraph which is the way it is..i understand that but its stupid and ridiclulous.

Originally posted by Docsta
EXACTLY...dude grow a brain. What the hell do you think the person that was killed thinks??? THE WAY they were killed is cruel and unusual....now arent they???

Originally posted by Docsta
LOL...i wasnt insulting.you...though i do remember...you insulting mr.king and me and saying we room together in a smart ass comment...so you struck first dude..not me...

I dont care if people dont agree with me.... its just so sad how you interpret things like everyone is trying to hurt you...poor little Noevo...everyones ganging up on him. dude you really need to chill out and take a chill pill..you cant even have a discussion without cryin about something or how someone was mean to you..god..how do you survive in the real world? i think youre the one who is lost my man.

and you talk about intelligence to eh? yea it makes you look intelligent when you use God's name in vain to shoot back at someone....uh huh.

I apolgize, I don't know where I got the idea you were insulting me from.

Noevo · Post by **Noevo** » Wed Oct 02, 2002 3:25 pm

Originally posted by Docsta
i agree with you man...im sorry let me clarify...i was only saying..if a jury of your peers has convicted you to be sent to death? why do you need an appeal if it it SO OBVIOUS that you killed these people(s)? ya know buddy? its just a total waste of time in SOME CASES

And it's because of those same "some cases" that it's there for every one.

torsten · Post by **torsten** » Wed Oct 02, 2002 3:25 pm

Originally posted by Mr. King
You condemn the result.

If you only condemn the result and not the cause, you're asking for things like this to happen again and again.

Noevo · Post by **Noevo** » Wed Oct 02, 2002 3:27 pm

Originally posted by torsten
And I want to add a HELL NO to the idea of bringing Saudi style punishments to the US. That's not an example of a society heading in the right direction. There are many nations (e.g. NW Europe) with low crime rates, but they don't achieve it with disgusting barbaric penalities.

The US Constitution and it's guarantee of rights for the accused ROCKS. The only problem with the US is that it doesn't educate its children very well -- including in the important matter of why those rights are so important.

Well said.

Mr King · Post by **Mr King** » Wed Oct 02, 2002 3:29 pm

Originally posted by torsten
If you only condemn the result and not the cause, you're asking for things like this to happen again and again.

How do you figure?

Docsta · Post by **Docsta** » Wed Oct 02, 2002 3:30 pm

Originally posted by torsten
And I want to add a HELL NO to the idea of bringing Saudi style punishments to the US. That's not an example of a society heading in the right direction. There are many nations (e.g. NW Europe) with low crime rates, but they don't achieve it with disgusting barbaric penalities.

The US Constitution and it's guarantee of rights for the accused ROCKS. The only problem with the US is that it doesn't educate its children very well -- including in the important matter of why those rights are so important.

then tell me a good way to punish those who steal besides throwing them in jail for a night..then they will do it again...even the people who break into peoples houses and steal their life earnings.etc...jail time doesnt cut...hell if you cut their arm off..they dont have an arm to steal with do they?? no they dont