Do you believe Obama is a Muslim?

[YARDofSTUF]

The definition for atheist is typically, "One who rejects god, or all religious beliefs."

So with that definition I wouldn't call them atheists. Irreligious or secular would probably be a closer fit.

[Roody]

By definition I think it does.

I'm foggy on most religious issues but if an absence of belief makes one an atheist...a baby would be a textbook example.

There's a big difference between disbelieving and the unawareness of belief.

I assume most religious parents would take objection with this, assuming that if they're religious so is their child. Beats me, but what jbc said makes sense.

I understand Jeremy's point I just don't believe it applies in this scenario. If a person had a concept of God and chose not to believe then I would have agreed with Jeremy, but when an idea is out there that you either aren't familiar with or don't comprehend it's not really a situation where you believe or disbelieve a thing. Just my own .02, but I do understand what Jeremy was stating.

[Humboldt]

I understand Jeremy's point I just don't believe it applies in this scenario. If a person had a concept of God and chose not to believe then I would have agreed with Jeremy, but when an idea is out there that you either aren't familiar with or don't comprehend it's not really a situation where you believe or disbelieve a thing. Just my own .02, but I do understand what Jeremy was stating.

*sees dead horse and raises whip*

But if a baby is too young to understand the concept of religion, or even its existence, what religion are they? Does it default to that of their parents?

Is there a difference between sans religion and athiest?
I have no clue.

[David]

Some religions believe that is it at the point conception which a child has a soul. There is usually some ceremony involved in bringing the newborn into a faith. After which, the rituals, history and tenets are taught.

Atheists are active in their disbelief. There are religions (Jainism is one) which a the notion of a god or a pantheon of gods do not exist. Ultimately, ignorance does not imply disbelief, as in the case of infants.

[Roody]

*sees dead horse and raises whip*

But if a baby is too young to understand the concept of religion, or even its existence, what religion are they? Does it default to that of their parents?

Is there a difference between sans religion and athiest?
I have no clue.

I wouldn't say they are a religion, but not being of a particular religion doesn't mean you are by default an atheist. In particular with a baby. I just don't think it's a black and white issue. Btw, IMO I don't think not choosing a particular religion means the only other option is to be an atheist. I know plenty of people who believe in God, but don't subscribe to a particular religion.

It's an interesting thing to discuss though no doubt.

[Roody]

Some religions believe that is it at the point conception which a child has a soul. There is usually some ceremony involved in bringing the newborn into a faith. After which, the rituals, history and tenets are taught.

Atheists are active in their disbelief. There are religions (Jainism is one) which a the notion of a god or a pantheon of gods do not exist.

I will tell you my own beliefs on the subject. I respect different faiths, but personally feel infant baptism isn't necessary. Babies are IMO born pure of heart making the need for infant baptism a moot point. It's only when they start to comprehend the difference between right and wrong that I believe baptism is necessary. For me personally I was a teenager before I was baptized. I grew up in church and have believed in God as long as I remember, but it wasn't until I understood God's grace and understood my own personal flaws that I came to be baptized.

Ultimately, ignorance does not imply disbelief, as in the case of infants.

I agree.

[JawZ]

I will tell you my own beliefs on the subject. I respect different faiths, but personally feel infant baptism isn't necessary. Babies are IMO born pure of heart making the need for infant baptism a moot point. It's only when they start to comprehend the difference between right and wrong that I believe baptism is necessary. For me personally I was a teenager before I was baptized. I grew up in church and have believed in God as long as I remember, but it wasn't until I understood God's grace and understood my own personal flaws that I came to be baptized.



I agree.

Theism...Atheism.

Moral...Amoral.


A baby isn't born with a set of values. So a baby is neither moral nor immoral...but rather amoral. Atheists reject. Infants have no belief in anything so they have the attribute of nonbelief. Once able to make a choice, then one can assert a label.

[Roody]

Theism...Atheism.

Moral...Amoral.


A baby isn't born with a set of values. So a baby is neither moral nor immoral...but rather amoral. Atheists reject. Infants have no belief in anything so they have the attribute of nonbelief. Once able to make a choice, then one can assert a label.

No arguments here. As I previously stated infants aren't in a position to make a choice thus being an atheist at birth isn't a possibility.

[Miggs]

Obama Says Muslim Call To Prayer “One of the prettiest sounds on Earth at sunset."
There's alot we don't know about this fool, but what we do know is scary.

[blebs]

Theism...Atheism.

Moral...Amoral.


A baby isn't born with a set of values. So a baby is neither moral nor immoral...but rather amoral. Atheists reject. Infants have no belief in anything so they have the attribute of nonbelief. Once able to make a choice, then one can assert a label.

Let me be reborn and document the events I feel, then I'll give you my opinion on the matter. There is a soul, that much I do know. How to prove it, well, look at the world around you. How does it affect you and your feelings? Why do you have feelings? Why do you breath, why do you have a heart beat? What instills fear in you? What does life mean?

[YARDofSTUF]

There's alot we don't know about this fool, but what we do know is scary.

I like this line. Its very fitting, but not to Obama.

[JawZ]

Let me be reborn and document the events I feel, then I'll give you my opinion on the matter. There is a soul, that much I do know. How to prove it, well, look at the world around you. How does it affect you and your feelings? Why do you have feelings? Why do you breath, why do you have a heart beat? What instills fear in you? What does life mean?

I grew to realize these things, as did you, from having parents and from reacting to the natural world/environment around us. Devoid of morality, we'd all be characters in Lord of the Flies. Survival is an instinct, and can be inherently violent at that. Nature is violent. Don't confuse that with evil.

[blebs]

In short, there is too much evil.

[YARDofSTUF]

Let me be reborn and document the events I feel, then I'll give you my opinion on the matter. There is a soul, that much I do know. How to prove it, well, look at the world around you. How does it affect you and your feelings? Why do you have feelings? Why do you breath, why do you have a heart beat? What instills fear in you? What does life mean?

I agree with you I do feel we have souls. But your examples can be refuted by saying thats just emotion, or learned behaviors.

The soul is just something else besides all that.

[Miggs]

I like this line. Its very fitting, but not to Obama.

I'm christian, have a job, love my country and don't live with my parents.

[Roody]

I'm christian, have a job, love my country and don't live with my parents.

Congrats on that. Most people here are the same way.

[YARDofSTUF]

I'm christian, have a job, love my country and don't live with my parents.

And yet you still feel inadequate? Thats too bad.

[Roody]

And yet you still feel inadequate? Thats too bad.

Miggs has a known bigot in his avatar. He has to keep telling us about what a great American and person he is because he hopes if he says it enough someone might buy into it.

[jeremyboycool]

The definition for atheist is typically, "One who rejects god, or all religious beliefs."

So with that definition I wouldn't call them atheists. Irreligious or secular would probably be a closer fit.

"The definition for atheist is typically, 'One who rejects god, or all religious beliefs.'"

Not true, the conventional definition is as I said it. Disbelief or absence of belief in God(s). Most atheist fall into those two categories; all though like theism, atheism is a blanket term, covering many different outlooks.

In fact many Buddhist consider themselves atheist; as some don't hold a belief in a supreme being, but they believe in things like reincarnation and the human soul. And there are also theistic Buddhist.

Many atheist believe in things like life after death and whatnot.

[jeremyboycool]

No arguments here. As I previously stated infants aren't in a position to make a choice thus being an atheist at birth isn't a possibility.

It's just semantics, Roody, and it has all the significance of calling a chair or a wet noodle an atheist. Of course "atheist" refers to a persons so it is N/A with a chair or a wet noodle.

And that was my point on what JBrazen said about Obama being a Muslim; that is was just semantics and didn't hold any real significance.

[jeremyboycool]

Some religions believe that is it at the point conception which a child has a soul. There is usually some ceremony involved in bringing the newborn into a faith. After which, the rituals, history and tenets are taught.

Atheists are active in their disbelief. There are religions (Jainism is one) which a the notion of a god or a pantheon of gods do not exist. Ultimately, ignorance does not imply disbelief, as in the case of infants.

"Atheists are active in their disbelief."

That is a common misconception, David. But I am not active in disbelief; to be honest, I am not sure how one could be active in disbelief. It seems to me that I would first have to believe in a god and then reject the fact I believe in a god. And that really would not make me an atheist but a theist in denial. But that is not the case; I simply do not have a belief in your god or any god for that matter.

[RoundEye]

As far as I am concerned, if the man says he is Christian then that is good enough for me. But if you need more: Then what about the Christian Church he's been going to for almost 20 years?

That does make it pretty clear. I never looked into his religious background, obviously.

I thought you were going to say something stupid like “his eyes are too close together” or “his ears aren’t even, one’s a little higher than the other”.

[YARDofSTUF]

"The definition for atheist is typically, 'One who rejects god, or all religious beliefs.'"

Not true, the conventional definition is as I said it. Disbelief or absence of belief in God(s). Most atheist fall into those two categories; all though like theism, atheism is a blanket term, covering many different outlooks.

In fact many Buddhist consider themselves atheist; as some don't hold a belief in a supreme being, but they believe in things like reincarnation and the human soul. And there are also theistic Buddhist.

Many atheist believe in things like life after death and whatnot.

Absence of belief being associated with atheism seems to come from a long term misuse of the word. All the definitions in dictionaries I've seen tend to point to it being a choice.

[YeOldeStonecat]

"Atheists are active in their disbelief."

That is a common misconception, David. But I am not active in disbelief; to be honest, I am not sure how one could be active in disbelief. It seems to me that I would first have to believe in a god and then reject the fact I believe in a god. And that really would not make me an atheist but a theist in denial. But that is not the case; I simply do not have a belief in your god or any god for that matter.

It's not a misconception, it's the definition of it..and knowing that infants cannot make a decision yet. If you chose to be an atheist...fine, but you made that decision. You know there are different paths that can be taken..and you chose yours.

An infant does not know....they don't even understand that there are paths and directions to take. An infant doesn't know that habanero peppers can burn their tongue, or that walking through poison ivy can leave an itchy rash for a week, or that Gerber is a major brand of baby and infant related products.

[jeremyboycool]

Absence of belief being associated with atheism seems to come from a long term misuse of the word. All the definitions in dictionaries I've seen tend to point to it being a choice.

YardofStuf, dictionaries are meant to be based off how we use the the words. There really is no such thing as a "long term misuse of the word". Instead, it would be an incomplete or out dated definition.

But here is something I dug up on dictionaries and atheism; it has a list of various different dictionaries definition, from different time period.

A common theme throughout the definitions on this page is the primary use of "disbelieve" when defining atheism. Some modern dictionaries drop this, but most comprehensive dictionaries do not. For some reason, however, people simply ignore this word and move right along to the secondary sense of "denial." When we take a closer look at the word "disbelieve," however, we find two senses: an active and a passive.

In the passive sense, "disbelieve" simply means "not believe" — thus a person who disbelieves a claim may simply not accept the truth of the claim without going any further, like asserting the opposite. This is the broadest sense of atheism, lacking belief in any gods. In the active sense, "disbelieve" involves deliberately refusing to believe something (possible reasons might include a lack of evidence or an incoherent claim). Once again, however, this is not the same as asserting that the claim is false and represents a slightly narrower version of weak atheism.

In the active sense, "disbelieve" involves deliberately refusing to believe something (possible reasons might include a lack of evidence or an incoherent claim). Thus, the definition of atheism, dating back at least to 1903 and probably much earlier, encompasses both the "weak" and the "strong" senses of atheism used by atheists today. The same will be true, with minor changes in wording, through nearly all of the dictionary definitions quoted here.

Here is some of the late 20th century definitions they list.

Webster's Unabridged Encyclopedic Dictionary, 1957

atheism: Disbelief in the existence of God; the state of godlessness. Atheism: unbelief in or denial of God or any supernaturalism; to ancient Greek it meant denial and lack of recognition of state gods. In 18th cent. it was a protest against religious hypocrisy; in 19th cent. it was any system not recognizing the idea of a personal Creator or any one supreme being. It sees marter, not spirit, as sole universal principle; its history one of opposition. Term often loosely used in referring to agnostics who neither deny nor admit the existence of God, or in regard to others who disagree with current theological doctrine

Oxford English Dictionary

atheism: (from Greek atheos, "without God, denying God") Disbelief in, or denial of, the existence of a God. Also, Disregard of duty to God, godlessness (practical atheism).

Webster's Third New International Dictionary, Unabridged

atheism: (from Greek atheos, "godless, not believing in the existence of gods) 1a: disbelief in the existence of God or any other deity b: the doctrine that there is neither God nor any other deity 2: godlessness esp. in conduct : ungodliness, wickedness.

Canadian Oxford Dictionary, 2001.

atheism: disbelief in the existence of God or gods.

disbelief: 1. lack of belief 2. astonishment

http://atheism.about.com/od/definitiono ... andard.htm

But really you might want to try something a bit more comprehensive then a dictionary.

I have always liked this site; although a book would probably be the most informative route to go.

Some Atheists, when asked what their religion is, will answer, simply, "Atheist." Others will say that they "have no religion, they are an Atheist."

Note that:
bullet Atheism relates to a belief in the existence or non-existence of a deity, or whether the person associates any meaning to the terms "God" or "deity."

bullet Atheism can involve the positive assertion that there is no deity; this is sometimes referred to as "strong Atheism." It is the most common dictionary definition for the term "Atheist," and is probably the definition used by most theists.

bullet Atheism can be the absence of a belief that there is a deity. This is the belief promoted by the American Atheists and many individual Atheists.

bullet Atheists often promote the belief that all Gods and Goddesses, as well as angels, demons, ghosts, etc., are nonexistent entities created by human minds.

In one way, most North Americas are Atheists or near Atheists. About 3 in 4 adults believe in the existence of the Christian Trinity: God the Father, Jesus and Holy Spirit. However, when it comes to the Mayan, Hindu, Ancient Roman, Ancient Greek, Ancient Egyptian, Ancient Sumerian, Sikh, and many hundreds of other Gods and Goddesses, they either:
bullet Regard them as something like the tooth fairy and Easter bunny: mythical entities that do not really exist but were artificially created by humans, or
bullet They exist as demons, supernatural entities without most of the powers of the Trinity.

Thus, the difference in beliefs about God between a typical Christian and a typical Atheist is numerically small: The strong Atheist believes that none of the many thousands of Gods and Goddesses exist; most Christians believe that one God exists as a Trinity. Whatever the other thousands of deities are, they are not Gods. Although the numerical difference is much less that 0.1%, the philosophical difference is immense.

http://www.religioustolerance.org/

[David]

"Atheists are active in their disbelief."

That is a common misconception, David. But I am not active in disbelief; to be honest, I am not sure how one could be active in disbelief. It seems to me that I would first have to believe in a god and then reject the fact I believe in a god. And that really would not make me an atheist but a theist in denial. But that is not the case; I simply do not have a belief in your god or any god for that matter.

There is an issue with semantics, my friend. Active, as in having confidence that no deity exists. This would be provided by evidence or a lack of evidence by those who claim existence. Compared to agnosticism, which doubts the existence of a god(s).
Pardon my brevity.... I need some food.

[jeremyboycool]

It's not a misconception, it's the definition of it..and knowing that infants cannot make a decision yet. If you chose to be an atheist...fine, but you made that decision. You know there are different paths that can be taken..and you chose yours.

An infant does not know....they don't even understand that there are paths and directions to take. An infant doesn't know that habanero peppers can burn their tongue, or that walking through poison ivy can leave an itchy rash for a week, or that Gerber is a major brand of baby and infant related products.

"If you chose to be an atheist...fine, but you made that decision."

As far as I can remember I have never believed in gods. I grew up in a household where the idea of gods was just not part of it. Which is probably why I am an atheist today.

[jeremyboycool]

There is an issue with semantics, my friend. Active, as in having confidence that no deity exists. This would be provided by evidence or a lack of evidence by those who claim existence. Compared to agnosticism, which doubts the existence of a god(s).
Pardon my brevity.... I need some food.

"Active, as in having confidence that no deity exists."

That is what is known as positive atheism or strong atheism.

Positive atheism is a term popularly used to describe the form of atheism that maintains that "There is at least one god" is a false statement. Negative atheism refers to any other type of non-theism, wherein a person does not believe any deities exist, but does not claim that same statement is false.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_a ... ve_atheism

There is also what is known as implicit and explicit atheism.

Implicit atheism and explicit atheism are subcategories of atheism coined by George H. Smith (1979, p.13-18). Implicit atheism is defined by Smith as "the absence of theistic belief without a conscious rejection of it". Explicit atheism is defined as "the absence of theistic belief due to a conscious rejection of it".[1] Explicit atheists have considered the idea of deities and have rejected belief that any exist. Implicit atheists thus either have not given the idea of deities much consideration, or, though they do not believe, have not rejected belief.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Implicit_a ... it_atheism



The word "atheism" is a very broad word, which covers many different points of view. Just like the word "theism"

[YeOldeStonecat]

"If you chose to be an atheist...fine, but you made that decision."

As far as I can remember I have never believed in gods. I grew up in a household where the idea of gods was just not part of it. Which is probably why I am an atheist today.

And that's fine, I'm not question your choice or asking why or trying to make you believe. But you're (guessing) an adult now, at least you know that some people out there believe in a god/deity, and you choose to stay your path. But a baby doesn't have that ability yet.

[jeremyboycool]

And that's fine, I'm not question your choice or asking why or trying to make you believe. But you're (guessing) an adult now, at least you know that some people out there believe in a god/deity, and you choose to stay your path. But a baby doesn't have that ability yet.

"And that's fine, I'm not question your choice or asking why or trying to make you believe. "


You are misunderstanding; there was no point in my life where I made such a conscious choice. I just don't have any reason to believe, and the fact that others believe is not reason enough for me. To be honest, I don't understand how anyone could believe in gods. But I accept that people do and that they feel they have good reason. That is what I think it boils down to: either you have reason to believe or you don't. The rest is just politics.

But as I pointed out the baby thing was just a word play.

[Rainbow]

Couldn't vote, there's no who cares choice.

Jeremy I find your Avatar Offensive.

[jeremyboycool]

Couldn't vote, there's no who cares choice.

Jeremy I find your Avatar Offensive.

"Jeremy I find your Avatar Offensive."

I find it funny and cute.

[YeOldeStonecat]

"And that's fine, I'm not question your choice or asking why or trying to make you believe. "


You are misunderstanding; there was no point in my life where I made such a conscious choice. I just don't have any reason to believe, and the fact that others believe is not reason enough for me..

No I'm not. My point is, you are aware that there are other sides. For example...you are aware that some people on this forum do believe, you are aware that some people the live down the street from you do believe, and you are aware that some people go to church on Sundays. You don't yourself, but you probably do realize that on Sundays some people go to church. You are aware that there is at least one other side to the coin.

My point is...a baby doesn't even know what any/all of the above is. They can't even begin to rationalize thoughts like "You guys go to something every Sunday morning..what is that? A church? What's that? Why?"

[YARDofSTUF]

YardofStuf, dictionaries are meant to be based off how we use the the words. There really is no such thing as a "long term misuse of the word". Instead, it would be an incomplete or out dated definition.

No such thing as long term misuse of the word? Then I guess irregardless is a word that means the same thing as regardless?

I'm sure there are lots of support you can dig up for your meaning of the word, but I doubt it will ever be fully accepted by all that way, especially by other religions and more conservative individuals.

I've always known it from the definition I mentioned and I see know reason to add more to it. Its expanding the word to mean more for what purpose? Irreligious and secular handle the rest well.

As for you last quote, I would toss that into some people calling themselves atheist when they might mean irreligious. Its a debate that could go on forever just like different traditions of Christian churches that believe in god will say that the others are not truly Christian because of their difference in beliefs of how they practice or intemperate things.

[jeremyboycool]

No such thing as long term misuse of the word? Then I guess irregardless is a word that means the same thing as regardless?

I'm sure there are lots of support you can dig up for your meaning of the word, but I doubt it will ever be fully accepted by all that way, especially by other religions and more conservative individuals.

I've always known it from the definition I mentioned and I see know reason to add more to it. Its expanding the word to mean more for what purpose? Irreligious and secular handle the rest well.

As for you last quote, I would toss that into some people calling themselves atheist when they might mean irreligious. Its a debate that could go on forever just like different traditions of Christian churches that believe in god will say that the others are not truly Christian because of their difference in beliefs of how they practice or intemperate things.

"Then I guess irregardless is a word that means the same thing as regardless?"

Yes. It is the nature of language; it does not always make perfect sense. "Proper English" is actually a religious concept that got incorporated into our eduction system a long time ago. But linguistically speaking, proper English is reflective of how the native speakers are using the language. Although, this is not just a linguistic inquiry but a philosophical one as well.

"I've always known it from the definition I mentioned and I see know reason to add more to it. Its expanding the word to mean more for what purpose? Irreligious and secular handle the rest well."

Some like the term "non-theist", they feel it is more clear and some prefer the term "skeptic". It is something linguistically we, as English speakers, are still hammering out. But, as far as I can tell, "atheism" is the generally the most accepted term.

"As for you last quote, I would toss that into some people calling themselves atheist when they might mean irreligious. "

I tend to listen to people when they tell me about their -ist or -ism. As it is a good chance that they know themselves much better then I ever could.

"Its a debate that could go on forever"

Yes, it is; but as long as it remains civil I don't see anything wrong with that.

[YARDofSTUF]

Yes, it is; but as long as it remains civil I don't see anything wrong with that.

Agreed. I like the discussion. I also do like the term Non-theist, forgot about that one.

Nice ninja edit as well.

[Roody]

I'm really enjoying this debate. Some good thoughts from many people.

[David]

"Active, as in having confidence that no deity exists."

That is what is known as positive atheism or strong atheism.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_a ... ve_atheism

There is also what is known as implicit and explicit atheism.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Implicit_a ... it_atheism



The word "atheism" is a very broad word, which covers many different points of view. Just like the word "theism"

Confidence is within self, a belief, not necessarily making any statement.
I read through the wiki and two other sources, indeed the definition is as expansive as it is flavored.
You posited that people are born atheistic. I would argue that atheism, in one form or another is a belief. Without the ability to process such a concept, infants cannot have any faith, save for which their parents or clergymen might claim for their spirit or soul (and plan on imprinting).

[Miggs]

I have no use for atheists, they hardly contribute to charities and believe in stupid superstitions, what a waste of time going thru life believing in nothing.

[RoundEye]

This guy is going to be a mental case by the time he is 25.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oM8l3X_7 ... ature=fvwp