Sorry GM, I won't support you any longer

JawZ · Post by **JawZ** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 9:48 am

http://money.cnn.com/2009/03/05/news/co ... /index.htm

Enough is enough already.

It's amazing how much power the bankers have.

Even if we give them more money, Americans won't be able to buy their vehicles once super-inflation takes hold.

I've never witnessed so much insanity in my entire life.

Sava700 · Post by **Sava700** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 9:51 am

They should have been made to go bankrupt a long time ago.. now we just gave them alot of money we will never see paid back.

downhill · Post by **downhill** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 9:54 am

GM did make their own bed and have been for the last 20 years imho.

That said, I'd hate to just see them go under. Personally I think given some good leadership, they could pull it off.

Superinflation? While true, that having to low an interest rate and lots of dollars floating around, you also need to have a huge consumer base to fuel it.

That' part is the problem. Who's buying anything? Projected figures for the GDP are pretty dismal right now.

JawZ · Post by **JawZ** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 9:54 am

Sava700 wrote:They should have been made to go bankrupt a long time ago.. now we just gave them alot of money we will never see paid back.

It was severance. It gave the workers time to go find other jobs.

downhill · Post by **downhill** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 9:54 am

Sava700 wrote:They should have been made to go bankrupt a long time ago.. now we just gave them alot of money we will never see paid back.

We spend more in a month in Iraq and have been for a long time.

Sava700 · Post by **Sava700** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 9:58 am

JawZ wrote:It was severance. It gave the workers time to go find other jobs.

what other jobs? lol I haven't see where the amount of jobs made has exceeded the amount lost in a month yet.

JawZ · Post by **JawZ** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 9:58 am

downhill wrote:GM did make their own bed and have been for the last 20 years imho.

That said, I'd hate to just see them go under. Personally I think given some good leadership, they could pull it off.

Superinflation? While true, that having to low an interest rate and lots of dollars floating around, you also need to have a huge consumer base to fuel it.

That' part is the problem. Who's buying anything? Projected figures for the GDP are pretty dismal right now.

Well, we can't keep pumping imaginary money into a collapsing economy. All of this newly printed money has no value because there is nothing of value backing it.

Sava700 · Post by **Sava700** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 9:59 am

downhill wrote:We spend more in a month in Iraq and have been for a long time.

I agree with you and we should be takin their oil and paying for it... but iraq really isn't the discussion. As for GM well none of the auto makers should have gotten money period. I can't wait to see GM go bankrupt and dump all the fat around their waist.

downhill · Post by **downhill** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 10:02 am

JawZ wrote:Well, we can't keep pumping imaginary money into a collapsing economy. All of this newly printed money has no value because there is nothing of value backing it.

I don't disagree with that. I've been saying for a long time that our ecomomy was imaginary for the last 20 years.

While there is some merit to a service based economy, meaning that it's real, there was no merit to the banking, real estate and insurance bubble.

Strong economies are based on industry and research/knowledge.

We are flunking.. but I think that can be turned around.

downhill · Post by **downhill** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 10:03 am

Sava700 wrote:I agree with you and we should be takin their oil and paying for it... but iraq really isn't the discussion. As for GM well none of the auto makers should have gotten money period. I can't wait to see GM go bankrupt and dump all the fat around their waist.

Loosing industry in this country isn't something we can afford to do.

Oil WAS supposed to pay for the war and is but not nearly enough.

The problem there was Rumsfield being to inflexible. An argument that in the past you disagreed with.

JawZ · Post by **JawZ** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 10:05 am

Sava700 wrote:what other jobs? lol I haven't see where the amount of jobs made has exceeded the amount lost in a month yet.

I can't help it if people like yourself are complete idiots. All you have to do is get up off your lazy ass and do a little research. There ARE jobs out there. In fact, there are some really good opportunities out there to CREATE jobs. all you have to do is look.

Sava700 · Post by **Sava700** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 10:08 am

JawZ wrote:I can't help it if people like yourself are complete idiots. All you have to do is get up off your lazy ass and do a little research. There ARE jobs out there. In fact, there are some really good opportunities out there to CREATE jobs. all you have to do is look.

Without doing the research I've not seen the numbers go the other way according to the mainstream news. I've been on the laid off side of things and know how hard it is.. the General Help ads for example in the local paper went from a half page to nearly nothing as of now.. sure not all of them will be advertised but its still a sign of which way the numbers go.

JawZ · Post by **JawZ** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 10:09 am

downhill wrote:I don't disagree with that. I've been saying for a long time that our ecomomy was imaginary for the last 20 years.

While there is some merit to a service based economy, meaning that it's real, there was no merit to the banking, real estate and insurance bubble.

Strong economies are based on industry and research/knowledge.

We are flunking.. but I think that can be turned around.

Here's an interesting fact....our production capacity has not decreased during this crisis. That's how we know that this is all a criminal action by the bankers to loot the American wallet.

the big corporations and banking firms are gobbling up huge chunks of stock while driving out the common man/private investor.

JawZ · Post by **JawZ** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 10:15 am

Sava700 wrote:Without doing the research I've not seen the numbers go the other way according to the mainstream news. I've been on the laid off side of things and know how hard it is.. the General Help ads for example in the local paper went from a half page to nearly nothing as of now.. sure not all of them will be advertised but its still a sign of which way the numbers go.

Help ads don't show small business opportunities.

downhill · Post by **downhill** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 10:22 am

JawZ wrote:Here's an interesting fact....our production capacity has not decreased during this crisis. That's how we know that this is all a criminal action by the bankers to loot the American wallet.

the big corporations and banking firms are gobbling up huge chunks of stock while driving out the common man/private investor.

I don't doubt that either. Can you imagine the fortunes to be made in true value stocks?

I took a large protion of a cd I had and bought long term stock. I mean....they are at what? 1992 value now?

What could you do if you really did have a lot of money? Stocks are a great tax haven for the rich.

David · Post by **David** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 10:33 am

JawZ wrote:Well, we can't keep pumping imaginary money into a collapsing economy. All of this newly printed money has no value because there is nothing of value backing it.

If people are will to accept it for the work they perform and stores accept it in trade for items and services, then it has value....

But, yes, hyperinflation is a serious concern.

By the way, you mentioned job opportunities readily available. OK, here is your chance to make some money. Point all those folks standing in long lines to these jobs and business opportunities that are about. I have some empiricisms regarding said subject. Hard to start a business without a bank loan.

Post by **YeOldeStonecat** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 11:28 am

JawZ wrote:Help ads don't show small business opportunities.

The rising rates on business loans, and stricter rules for obtaining loans, and the reeling in of credit lines to such things as wholesale channels..aren't helping small business either. And then there's taxes on the biz....oh what's on the horizon here.

Look at shop/office windows as you drive around town..small businesses are closing their doors.

I can't remember the last time I did a server/network install for a new start up biz.

JawZ · Post by **JawZ** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 11:46 am

David wrote:If people are will to accept it for the work they perform and stores accept it in trade for items and services, then it has value....

But, yes, hyperinflation is a serious concern.

By the way, you mentioned job opportunities readily available. OK, here is your chance to make some money. Point all those folks standing in long lines to these jobs and business opportunities that are about. I have some empiricisms regarding said subject. Hard to start a business without a bank loan.

That's because Americans are "independent" so they independently assume a costly loan....while the good Indian/Hindu/Asian immigrants use their collective power to get a loan, live in 1 house, and make oodles of money until they can truly become independent....then the next family moves into the vacancy.

Here:

http://www.7-eleven.com/Franchising/tab ... fault.aspx

Cost is $60 - 250K. Just depends on your area. They do the rest. Trust me, I've done all the preliminaries.

How about Dunkin Donuts?

http://www.dunkinfranchising.com/aboutu ... -home.html

Same Indians/Hindus/Asians/etc

Again, they use the same collective powers to startup.

You should see some of the houses they live in.....MANSIONS! And they all ride together to work in shifts using the same econoline van. It's like a shuttle. they borrowed that idea from the military. How do I know....because the friends I've made have been in the Indian Army!!!!!

I'm telling you, the auto-workers of America could unite and kick ass....sure it might not be the traditional way of doing things but who cares when you're making money and meeting your family obligations.

I could go on and on and on when it comes to government contracting.....

mountainman · Post by **mountainman** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 11:56 am

I think GM is done.

triniwasp · Post by **triniwasp** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 12:23 pm

mountainman wrote:I think GM is done.

I think it is up to them, we all remember Chrysler getting bailed out and Lee Iaccoca turned them around. I think that it is possible for the auto industry to succeed and pay back everything they have borrowed with interest.

Part of the reason I believe that is my next car will probably be American; I have never purchased an American car besides the first one I worked for as a kid. Other than that I have found them largely inferior to Japanese cars, at least the ones in my price range. However, now I feel almost obligated to purchase an American car by the next go around (3-4 years). I imagine others probably feel the same.

SeedOfChaos · Post by **SeedOfChaos** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 1:04 pm

I think what GM and also Chrysler need is swift action - either way.

Consider this: A warranty from a company of which you don't know if it'll exist in one month is pretty much pointless. Uncertainty in this area probably causes sales to drop even further than they normally would. While GM lost about 50% of its sales, Mercedes-Benz lost only 20% in North America. The Smart brand even increased its sales, as did a few others. That's partially due to the fact that people believe that Mercedes will cover their warranty for the period it grants the warranty. Of course there are also other factors involved, but I do believe this plays a role.

Patriotism is good and all, but if you can barely afford the car in these times of crisis to begin with, you don't want uncertainty about future costs, do you? What if you really really need the car to get to your job - and couldn't afford a new engine in a year - because you're still paying off the loan you had to take to get the car? Is "Buying American" really an option at that point - or at least a GM or Chrysler, since Ford is a different story?

There's a point of no return, where the trust in the company is so shaken that they cannot compete even if they offered a truly competitive product at a competitive price.

If they can be saved, they need to be saved fast.

Also on the other side... if they cannot be saved, because the point of no return is already passed or they are so hopelessly indebted that interest payments would put them into the red even if they would generate a decent operating profit in the future, it also needs to be ended soon to save more taxes (or rather federal debt) from being wasted.

Ended as in its current form, I'm not saying it couldn't file for chapter 11 and regroup. This is probably the best option now, IMO.

JawZ · Post by **JawZ** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 1:05 pm

triniwasp wrote:I think it is up to them, we all remember Chrysler getting bailed out and Lee Iaccoca turned them around. I think that it is possible for the auto industry to succeed and pay back everything they have borrowed with interest.

Part of the reason I believe that is my next car will probably be American; I have never purchased an American car besides the first one I worked for as a kid. Other than that I have found them largely inferior to Japanese cars, at least the ones in my price range. However, now I feel almost obligated to purchase an American car by the next go around (3-4 years). I imagine others probably feel the same.

I'm afraid to buy an American car because if they go out of business, who supports the product? Who provides warranty support? Has that been addressed yet?

JawZ · Post by **JawZ** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 1:08 pm

SeedOfChaos wrote:I think what GM and also Chrysler need is swift action - either way.

Consider this: A warranty from a company of which you don't know if it'll exist in one month is pretty much pointless. Uncertainty in this area probably causes sales to drop even further than they normally would.

There's a point of no return, where the trust in the company is so shaken that they cannot compete even if they offered a truly competitive product at a competitive price.

If they can be saved, they need to be saved fast.

Also on the other side... if they cannot be saved, because the point of no return is already passed or they are so hopelessly indebted that interest payments would put them into the red even if they would generate a decent operating profit in the future, it also needs to be ended soon to save more taxes (or rather federal debt) from being wasted.

Ended as in its current form, I'm not saying it could't file for chapter 11 and regroup. This isprobably the best option now, IMO.

I fully 100% agree.

I have been lobbying for their breakup ever since this crisis arose. The failure to sell SUV's affected the entire brand.

Break them up and restructure.

SeedOfChaos · Post by **SeedOfChaos** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 1:26 pm

To expand on the topic... what I REALLY don't get.

Just look at this: http://www.vauxhall.co.uk/vaux/pages/cars/carRange.jsp

It's not like GM does not have decent cars in its global portfolio! It has a full range of small to medium sized, fuel efficient (Agila: up to 62.8mpg), reliable (almost all models of this decade) and innovative (especially the Insignia) cars in Europe, under the Opel, Vauxhall and Saab brands. Detroit (HQ) owns every single patent ever generated in Rüsselsheim (Opel), London (Vauxhall) or Trollhättan (Saab). They have had the ability to put these or other contemporary models on the US market for years. They still haven't, at least most of them have never seen American daylight.

Now, as probably the last model Saab ever produces they now introduce... A FRIGGIN SUV! I rest my case. GM still hasn't learned one bit and is no longer viable in its current form.

JawZ · Post by **JawZ** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 1:32 pm

SeedOfChaos wrote:To expand on the topic... what I REALLY don't get.

Just look at this: http://www.vauxhall.co.uk/vaux/pages/cars/carRange.jsp

It's not like GM does not have decent cars in its global portfolio! It has a full range of small to medium sized, fuel efficient, reliable and innovative cars in Europe, under the Opel, Vauxhall and Saab brands. Detroit (HQ) owns every single patent ever generated in Rüsselsheim (Opel), London (Vauxhall) or Trollhättan (Saab). They have had the ability to put these or other contemporary models on the US market for years. They still haven't.

Now, as probably the last model Saab ever produces they now introduce... A FRIGGIN SUV! I rest my case. GM still hasn't learned one bit and is no longer viable in its current form.

Simple, they are not finished robbing us.

If I give you a perfect product, how often will you need to upgrade?

Look at cell phones here in the US. We lag behind everyone in cell technology because it's not profitable to give us what we want.

they only give us what we need in increments.

SeedOfChaos · Post by **SeedOfChaos** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 1:44 pm

JawZ wrote:If I give you a perfect product, how often will you need to upgrade?

Look, I work for a car manufacturer myself. I know where profit is generated for which models.

A-Class - no money is made on the sale, money is made in after-sales.
S-Class - money is made on the sale and less in after-sales.

It depends on which category a vehicle belongs to. GM's product tend to fall more in the first category, especially on the US market. Ever notice that EU sale prices for cars are much higher? Aside from taxation, the main difference is warranty and goodwill costs. On the US market, a cheap initial purchase is required to compete, so the money is charged afterwards.

But if your sales drop because customers demand different models and only get them from importers and you slide towards bankruptcy... well it just may be time to put your own competitive models on the market, no?

JawZ · Post by **JawZ** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 1:59 pm

SeedOfChaos wrote:Look, I work for a car manufacturer myself. I know where profit is generated for which models.

A-Class - no money is made on the sale, money is made in after-sales.
S-Class - money is made on the sale and less in after-sales.

It depends on which category a vehicle belongs to. GM's product tend to fall more in the first category, especially on the US market. Ever notice that EU sale prices for cars are much higher? Aside from taxation, the main difference is warranty and goodwill costs. On the US market, a cheap initial purchase is required to compete, so the money is charged afterwards.

But if your sales drop because customers demand different models and only get them from importers and you slide towards bankruptcy... well it just may be time to put your own competitive models on the market, no?

Break it down for me Barney style.

After sales? Is an A-Class guaranteed to break down thus requiring parts? Can you explain this to me more clearly so I can understand?

Couple of other question Ron, what have your historical fuel prices been and what do the taxes raised from the fuel sales give you? Free healthcare?

Roody · Post by **Roody** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 2:06 pm

JawZ wrote:I can't help it if people like yourself are complete idiots. All you have to do is get up off your lazy ass and do a little research.

Easy there tex.

YARDofSTUF · Post by **YARDofSTUF** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 2:18 pm

I would hate to see GM go under, they have some great cars.

JawZ · Post by **JawZ** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 2:25 pm

Roody wrote:Easy there tex.

Please consult Philip. He's already been advised that me and Frank know eathother outside of SG. We bust balls all the time. Well...that's a lie, Frank has no balls. But yeah....

Roody · Post by **Roody** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 2:27 pm

JawZ wrote:Please consult Philip. He's already been advised that me and Frank know eathother outside of SG. We bust balls all the time. Well...that's a lie, Frank has no balls. But yeah....

Ahh that's right. I forgot.

JawZ · Post by **JawZ** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 2:29 pm

Roody wrote:Ahh that's right. I forgot. :P

It's ok...Frank hasn't.

I don't let him forget that he's a quack. But he knows I heart him.

Prey521 · Post by **Prey521** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 2:39 pm

YARDofSTUF wrote:I would hate to see GM go under, they have some great cars.

I Love my Tahoe. And when the lease is up next year, I'll get another GM SUV, but will probably be a used one if they're out of business. lol

David · Post by **David** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 2:50 pm

JawZ wrote:That's because Americans are "independent" so they independently assume a costly loan....while the good Indian/Hindu/Asian immigrants use their collective power to get a loan, live in 1 house, and make oodles of money until they can truly become independent....then the next family moves into the vacancy.

Here:

http://www.7-eleven.com/Franchising/tab ... fault.aspx

Cost is $60 - 250K. Just depends on your area. They do the rest. Trust me, I've done all the preliminaries.

How about Dunkin Donuts?

http://www.dunkinfranchising.com/aboutu ... -home.html

Same Indians/Hindus/Asians/etc

Again, they use the same collective powers to startup.

You should see some of the houses they live in.....MANSIONS! And they all ride together to work in shifts using the same econoline van. It's like a shuttle. they borrowed that idea from the military. How do I know....because the friends I've made have been in the Indian Army!!!!!

I'm telling you, the auto-workers of America could unite and kick ass....sure it might not be the traditional way of doing things but who cares when you're making money and meeting your family obligations.

I could go on and on and on when it comes to government contracting.....

Excellent points, and display the cultural differences of Asian and European American families. There is also a saturation point with such stores, yes they can and do fail because of it.

As to the auto industry using a military approach, well we can certainly produce like no one else. The liberty ships of WW2 would be a prime example, however, you still need buyers for the products.

david

SeedOfChaos · Post by **SeedOfChaos** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 2:53 pm

JawZ wrote:Break it down for me Barney style.

After sales? Is an A-Class guaranteed to break down thus requiring parts? Can you explain this to me more clearly so I can understand?

Couple of other question Ron, what have your historical fuel prices been and what do the taxes raised from the fuel sales give you? Free healthcare?

No, no car we make is guaranteed to break down. Come on, as premium car producer that would just be plain stupid. I really don't believe any company makes cars that are guaranteed to break down. Turn it the other way around, and you get much closer. We, and any other maker for that matter, do not make cars that are guaranteed to not break down - other than for the period that the warranty provides, two years (in the EU, anyway).

Also, the warranty and goodwill regulations allow us to limit much of it, especially goodwill, to customers who have been servicing their vehicles in garages meeting the standards set forth by Mercedes-Benz - those with the star on the roof, basically, contractual partners. So you just charge more for a service or parts than an independent garage. In return, the customer can rest assured that he won't be charged if there's a constructive defect that needs to be repaired, and that the technician has been trained on servicing our specific products as well as having the required tools to do so.

Also, over here, the company I work for (the MB Customer Assistance Center) can somewhat influence our contractual partners if they treat our customers unfairly, but we don't have much leverage against independent garages. If a garage with a star or any part of the Daimler organization treats you unfairly, there a central point of contact for redress - somewhat independent, since we don't get budgeted by the dealers, garages & national organisations but by HQ - to improve customer satisfaction.

Of course, our service (at least in the EU, the US is a different market as I explained above) it's not just limited to that, goodwill is essentially a voluntary compensation if we feel the part should not have broken down yet, but there's no legal entitlement to it. In practice this means that if you as customer have a good relationship with your dealer (meaning you bought your car there and service it there), or have been driving Mercedes for thirty years, they'll do a hell of a lot for you for free, even out of their own pockets if Daimler doesn't pay for it. But in the end, we're all businesses, Daimler and dealers alike, and as such aim for profit. That profit can only come from customers, thus you.

In the S-Class segment, people want costs they can calculate with - company leasing schemes, and avoid hassle if something happens. So the S-Class comes with a quite premium price, but part of that you get back through warranties and goodwill in the long run.

In the A-Class segment, you sell through price. So the margin on the sale is often eaten up in rebates. Profit still has to come from somewhere, otherwise we would be better off not offering it. If you can't make profit on the sale, you have to make profit on the service.

You should compare the service costs for an A150 to a S500. You'll find that the factor between them is nowhere near the factor in sales price. The service on the S500 does not cost ten times more than that on the A150.

That said, cost cutting programs have been a bane for us in the past, to be honest. There were times when we'd use the 1c screw or bolt instead of the 1.5c one. We shouldn't have, in my private opinion. Mercedes-Benz should always be about lasting quality, like it was most of the time in its existence. But for that you've always paid a premium price - at the point of sale and afterwards, that's our business model. And with that premium price comes the obligation of quality, safety and innovation.

But you really cannot transfer most of that to the situation of a volume producer like GM in an entirely different market, the US. I could only tell you how we do business over here. And what I've written is really just a VERY abbreviated version, leaving much out. It would take a number of long nights with many beers and a disappearing NDA to tell the rest.

DaimlerChrysler as such failed to produce synergies because the Daimler (quality) and Chrysler (quantity) sectors did not allow for much interaction between the two brands. Take this as a sign that not all Daimler lessons learned are applicable to Chrysler, or GM for that matter. We have our business model and they have theirs.

On a sidenote, Daimler still produced a noticeable profit last year. I'm confident we'll do the same this year, especially with the new E-Class out now (not the one still on http://www.mbusa.com). We have been updating our engines... how does a 2.2 liter engine with 204 hp and 367 ft lb torque sound? 0-100 km/h (roughly 0-60 mph) in 6.9 secs, and top speed of 150 mph? Oh, and did I mention 43 mpg? The E250 CDI may not make it to the US market, but other new engines will, including diesels. (I did the metric to imperial conversion myself, so mistakes are possible and the figures are not official).

I'm not trying to be a salesman here to sell, I'm just saying other companies make progress.

Sava700 · Post by **Sava700** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 2:59 pm

JawZ wrote:Well...that's a lie, Frank has no balls. But yeah....

Roody · Post by **Roody** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 3:09 pm

JawZ wrote:It's ok...Frank hasn't.

I don't let him forget that he's a quack. But he knows I heart him.

Ok be honest. Does he dress up as the Hokie bird for Halloween?

SeedOfChaos · Post by **SeedOfChaos** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 3:25 pm

JawZ wrote:Couple of other question Ron, what have your historical fuel prices been and what do the taxes raised from the fuel sales give you? Free healthcare?

To also answer questions as well, although we stray a bit off topic...

Historical fuel prices? Ever rising, always above US. Currently going between 1.10 - 1.20 € per liter in Germany and Netherlands, I think. I haven't been using my car in the past month, so I don't know for sure - I walk most of the time, it's less than 10 minutes to work, around 20 downtown. That would roughly translate to 5.10 - 5.20 US$. I think US prices have been rising much faster in recent years and are approaching EU prices much more than they did a decade ago or before that.

What that particular tax money was used for? Depends on which EU country you look at, each has their own system. I've taken a quick glance at Germany, and there at least part of the tax is used for road construction and maintenance. Another part of it is used to subsidize alternative energies. I would guess that yet another part goes toward the treasury. Certainly not free healthcare, that is paid for differently. Here's how it works in Germany, again, every EU country has it's own system, also for health care.

First of all, to working people, health care isn't free. There are two types of health insurance, obligatory/legal (for a lack of a better translation) and private. Obligatory is for the people with no to lower incomes, people with income (wage, salary or other) above a certain threshold have to (still obliged) have a private insurance.

For employed people, the employer and employees share the costs, to keep it affordable for any working person. The premiums depend on your wage, so the more you earn, the more you pay. The same goes for private insurances, where premiums are yet higher (but capped), but in return you also get additional services, such as cosmetic issues covered, or single bed hospital rooms, more dental care included, those type of things.

By having the premium adjusted according to your income, it is affordable to everyone - including those with no income, because the well off are partially financing the health care costs of those with lesser income. If there's a gap in the budget, it's filled by the treasury. The treasury again is filled by lots of things, including income tax and making debt.

The private insurances of course do need money transfers, they can live well off the insurance premiums - after all, their customers are generally well off.

On that note, Germany is still aiming for a balanced budget in general, but can't make it these years. Still, debt is increased much less in than in the US, by the way. But our politicians are also keen to throw insane amounts of money at banks and other corporations these day.

David · Post by **David** » Thu Mar 05, 2009 5:09 pm

SeedOfChaos wrote:To expand on the topic... what I REALLY don't get.

Just look at this: http://www.vauxhall.co.uk/vaux/pages/cars/carRange.jsp

It's not like GM does not have decent cars in its global portfolio! It has a full range of small to medium sized, fuel efficient (Agila: up to 62.8mpg), reliable (almost all models of this decade) and innovative (especially the Insignia) cars in Europe, under the Opel, Vauxhall and Saab brands. Detroit (HQ) owns every single patent ever generated in Rüsselsheim (Opel), London (Vauxhall) or Trollhättan (Saab). They have had the ability to put these or other contemporary models on the US market for years. They still haven't, at least most of them have never seen American daylight.

Now, as probably the last model Saab ever produces they now introduce... A FRIGGIN SUV! I rest my case. GM still hasn't learned one bit and is no longer viable in its current form.

The American car companies are witnessing the early to mid-seventies. For an auto history buff, it is stunning the advances the US builders made during the fifties and sixties. From efficient compacts to turbo charged offerings, the American makers were not short of innovation. Sadly, the bigger is better approach, converted the smart fleet of cars into a elephant graveyard when oil embargos gave a boon to the Japanese manufacturers. Other issues, including waning quality and poor designs, destroyed US hegemony in the industry.

Perhaps the same could be spoken of most American industries.

Regardless, the SUV market has been glutted for a significant number of years, the big three should have been aware of this trend.... Only that the market for small cars relies on thinner margins.