LinkThe next person to stop at Seven-Eleven should pick up chips and dip for C.C. Sabathia's goodbye party. They can hold it on the mound at newly named Progressive Field.
If the Mets complete their trade for Minnesota's Johan Santana, they might as well buy some cold drinks to wash down the chips because there's no way Sabathia will be an Indian after the 2008 season. If the Mets land Santana, it means they've agreed to a five- to six-year deal that could be worth between $130 million and $150 million.
The Indians are not going to give Sabathia a contract for that much money or that many years. But it's just the kind of contract Legacy Sports, Sabathia's representatives, will consider relevant.
The Mets have pursued Santana since the Twins put him on the market in November. They outlasted the Yankees and Boston, tentatively sending prospects Carlos Gomez, Phil Humber, Kevin Mulvey and Deolis Guerra to the Twins. Now all they have to do is satisfy Santana.
He has a complete no-trade clause and can veto any deal. The Mets, who have had a quiet winter after choking down the stretch in the NL East last season, are in a corner. They have to give Santana what he wants or the trade goes away. Not to mention their chance of adding a No. 1 starter to a needy rotation of Pedro Martinez, John Maine and Oliver Perez.
The Indians knew this kind of deal was out there. Their best bet to keep Sabathia was for the Twins to hang onto Santana this season. It would have given them a better chance of signing Sabathia using contract numbers more favorable to them.
If this deal goes through, Santana's contract will be the red light special.
Nothing really favors the Indians in this equation except for Sabathia and his family's stated desire to stay in Cleveland. Many former Indians have said the same thing before they left town for bigger deals.
The similarities between Santana and Sabathia are many, the most important being they are each eligible for free agency after the 2008 season. Here are some others:
They're left-handed.
They've spent their entire career in the AL Central.
They're Cy Young winners, Santana in 2004 and 2006 and Sabathia in 2007.
Santana turns 29 in March. Sabathia turns 28 in July.
Santana is 93-44 with a 3.22 ERA in his career. Sabathia is 100-63 with a 3.83 ERA.
Santana has one 20-win season, Sabathia has one 19-win season.
They've never had a serious arm injury.
There are differences as well.
Santana is a neat 6-0, 208 pounder. Sabathia's body type, 6-7 and pushing 300 pounds, might concern some teams in negotiating a multiyear deal.
Santana has more strikeouts, 1,381 to 1,142. Sabathia has more innings pitched, 1,406 to 1,308 .
Santana has made 175 starts with six complete games compared to Sabathia, who has 219 starts and 16 complete games.
Sabathia received the Indians' only proposal at the end of December. The four-year offer was based on the contracts of several pitchers including San Diego's Jake Peavy, Chicago's Carlos Zambrano, Toronto's Roy Halladay and St. Louis' Chris Carpenter.
"If Santana signs this contract, it will be another added reference point to establishing a market value for C.C.," General Manager Mark Shapiro said. "It will be another contract along with Peavy's, Halladay's, Zambrano's and Carpenter's. How relevant it is is up to C.C. and his representatives."
Asked if Santana's potential deal would ruin the Indians chances of signing Sabathia, Shapiro repeated his above statement.
The average annual value of Zambrano's five-year, $91.5 million deal is $18.3 million. Peavy, last year's National League Cy Young winner, recently signed a three-year, $53 million extension for an AAV of $17.3 million a year.
Halladay's three-year $40 million deal has an AAV of $13.33 million and Carpenter's five-year, $63.5 million deal has an AAV of $12.7 million.
Shapiro wanted some kind of resolution to negotiations before pitchers and catchers report to spring training Feb. 14. One could be coming soon, but during last week's Indians press tour, Shapiro made it clear he would pursue Sabathia even if he filed for free agency following the upcoming season.
"It's a question of whether C.C. wants to explore his alternatives," Shapiro said at the time. "Or whether we have an acceptable alternative to preclude him from doing that now.
"I don't handicap negotiations. I go in even keel with a desire to get something done. Most importantly, with a consistent belief in him."
Sabathia's agents have not made a counter proposal for one obvious reason -- everyone's been waiting for the Twins to do something with Santana.
Getting Santana out of the American League, apart from influencing Sabathia's fate, would help the Indians several ways. Not only wouldn't they have to face one of the best pitchers in the game five or six times a year, but the prospects the Twins are scheduled to receive from the Mets aren't expected to impact their big-league club.
If the Twins had received Melky Cabrera and Phil Hughes from the Yankees or Jon Lester or Jacoby Ellsbury from the Red Sox, it would have been a different story.
Not only would they have represented an immediate threat to the Tribe, but Santana's presence could have put Boston or New York on track for 100 or more wins this season.
Keeping Sabathia in Cleveland is another matter altogether. A matter that is getting more and more beyond the Tribe's reach.
Cleveland Indians' Sabathia could be gone for good
Cleveland Indians' Sabathia could be gone for good
If the Indians lose Sabathia to a big market team because the rich get richer and the middle and lower markets can't compete then I will seriously consider swearing off MLB. Not sure it would be worth it. Watching Manny Ramirez, Jim Thome and then Sabathia leave due to money is just not cool. I'm tired of watching my team develop these guys and then other teams get the benefits only because they have more money to throw around.
The Twins should have lept while the Yanks and RedSox were in a bidding war.Izzo wrote:You'll get no sympathy from me. 4 clowns for Santana....pfff
Hell_Yes
Luck is where preparation meets opportunity - Seneca
"Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'" - Isaac Asimov
It is my ambition to say in ten sentences what others say in a whole book. - Friedrich Nietzsche
I'm not really sure they were. Bill Smith seemed to think one or the other would up their original offers and they never did. I didn't like the Yankees deal just because it's New York ....I did like Ellsbury but seeing another Minnesota 'star athlete' end up in Boston would have been too much to take. It sucks being a Minnesota sports fan.David wrote:The Twins should have lept while the Yanks and RedSox were in a bidding war.
Hard to blame the Twins on this one. It's pretty clear they can't match what the Red Sox and Yankees can offer. In this instance the Mets (A team I like btw) is about to really screw my Indians because they will have no choice, but to pay an obscene amount of money for Santana because they desperately need a #1 pitcher. This will of course hurt the Indians dealing with C.C. unless they can convince him to take a hometown discount.Izzo wrote:I'm not really sure they were. Bill Smith seemed to think one or the other would up their original offers and they never did. I didn't like the Yankees deal just because it's New York ....I did like Ellsbury but seeing another Minnesota 'star athlete' end up in Boston would have been too much to take. It sucks being a Minnesota sports fan.
No chance. It's all about money.Roody wrote:Hard to blame the Twins on this one. It's pretty clear they can't match what the Red Sox and Yankees can offer. In this instance the Mets (A team I like btw) is about to really screw my Indians because they will have no choice, but to pay an obscene amount of money for Santana because they desperately need a #1 pitcher. This will of course hurt the Indians dealing with C.C. unless they can convince him to take a hometown discount.
That's just the way it works. We'll see if the Red Sox or Yankees try picking him up. I'm not a fan of any Cleveland sports (look to the avatar for the reason why) so I cant really say I'm upset. At least he doesnt play on an NL team. There's not many throws he could beat running home.
I will say, however, that both Santana and Sabathia are incredible pitchers. Sabathia will be a valuable commodity to any team he joins.
I'm pretty surprised that the Yanks let Santana slip through their fingers too. They were interested, lord knows they have the money, what could have happened?
Man, I cant wait for the season to start. It's almost February, only 2 more months!
I will say, however, that both Santana and Sabathia are incredible pitchers. Sabathia will be a valuable commodity to any team he joins.
I'm pretty surprised that the Yanks let Santana slip through their fingers too. They were interested, lord knows they have the money, what could have happened?
Man, I cant wait for the season to start. It's almost February, only 2 more months!
No no no! Minnesota got greedy. They wanted Hughes, Cabrera with either Kennedy or Chamberlain and one of Yankees better AAA fielders. A similar four player request was made of Boston. Either team would have bit had the Twins not pressed for more bodies.Izzo wrote:I'm not really sure they were. Bill Smith seemed to think one or the other would up their original offers and they never did. I didn't like the Yankees deal just because it's New York ....I did like Ellsbury but seeing another Minnesota 'star athlete' end up in Boston would have been too much to take. It sucks being a Minnesota sports fan.
I feel for you as a fan of a small market team, but success can be had through proper scouting and wise trades.
Hell_Yes
Luck is where preparation meets opportunity - Seneca
"Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'" - Isaac Asimov
It is my ambition to say in ten sentences what others say in a whole book. - Friedrich Nietzsche
It can, but it can't be maintained with those players you scouted. If a team had 1 or 2 bad years of scouting then they are screwed for several years. That isn't the case with your Boston's, New York's etc..David wrote:
I feel for you as a fan of a small market team, but success can be had through proper scouting and wise trades.
They can just patch the holes with a top-tier player. Small market teams can trade also, but they lack the money needed to patch their holes properly. At least comparied to bigger market teams.
I got tix to the Devil Rays home opener this year against the Mariners. Looking forward to that one. Since I have lived down here I have really paid more attention to that team. They are building a very good nucleus in Tampa.xekushnr wrote:
Man, I cant wait for the season to start. It's almost February, only 2 more months!
Roody wrote:It can, but it can't be maintained with those players you scouted. If a team had 1 or 2 bad years of scouting then they are screwed for several years. That isn't the case with your Boston's, New York's etc..
They can just patch the holes with a top-tier player. Small market teams can trade also, but they lack the money needed to patch their holes properly. At least comparied to bigger market teams.
The small market can rely on the impatience of the spenders to purge their farm systems to grab a proven talent. If they can pick up 3 prime AAA players, anyone of them can be the next Liriano or Haren... which they will be able to pay little for their services for quite a few years. Consider also, purchasing an established player is no guaranty of success, ask any Met fan.
Sure the large market teams have an advantage, but not insurmountable.
Hell_Yes
Luck is where preparation meets opportunity - Seneca
"Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'" - Isaac Asimov
It is my ambition to say in ten sentences what others say in a whole book. - Friedrich Nietzsche
As well they should...Santana is a rare gem. He's a 2 time Cy Young award winner and the most dominant pitcher in baseball over the last 4 years by miles. In spite of his upside Hughes and Chamberlain haven't done squat....IMO there's more of an argument from the Beantowners about Bucholz/Ellsbury/Lester.David wrote:No no no! Minnesota got greedy. They wanted Hughes, Cabrera with either Kennedy or Chamberlain and one of Yankees better AAA fielders. A similar four player request was made of Boston. Either team would have bit had the Twins not pressed for more bodies.
I feel for you as a fan of a small market team, but success can be had through proper scouting and wise trades.
pert nearDavid wrote:The small market can rely on the impatience of the spenders to purge their farm systems to grab a proven talent. If they can pick up 3 prime AAA players, anyone of them can be the next Liriano or Haren... which they will be able to pay little for their services for quite a few years. Consider also, purchasing an established player is no guaranty of success, ask any Met fan.
Sure the large market teams have an advantage, but not insurmountable.
Unfortunately for the small market they have to give up proven skill for unproven talent. I agree it's not impossible, but it's a heavy advantage.David wrote:The small market can rely on the impatience of the spenders to purge their farm systems to grab a proven talent. If they can pick up 3 prime AAA players, anyone of them can be the next Liriano or Haren... which they will be able to pay little for their services for quite a few years. Consider also, purchasing an established player is no guaranty of success, ask any Met fan.
Sure the large market teams have an advantage, but not insurmountable.
Roody wrote:Unfortunately for the small market they have to give up proven skill for unproven talent. I agree it's not impossible, but it's a heavy advantage.
Again, look at the Mets. They had spent a fortune on some of the best players in the game. The "proven" skill does not always pan out. The Yankees learned the same in the eighties.
http://mistupid.com/sports/worldseries.htm
Read from the eighties on.... Has free agency closed the door on the small market teams?
BTW.... Arguing sports is not my strongest talent.....
Hell_Yes
Luck is where preparation meets opportunity - Seneca
"Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'" - Isaac Asimov
It is my ambition to say in ten sentences what others say in a whole book. - Friedrich Nietzsche
Yes I understand that point, but due to the big market of the Mets they also have the ability to try again the next year if a FA fails for them. Not the case with smaller market teams.David wrote:Again, look at the Mets. They had spent a fortune on some of the best players in the game. The "proven" skill does not always pan out. The Yankees learned the same in the eighties.
http://mistupid.com/sports/worldseries.htm
Read from the eighties on.... Has free agency closed the door on the small market teams?
BTW.... Arguing sports is not my strongest talent.....
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24giovanni
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24giovanni
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Boston will be happy to take him next year as a free agent. He is going to want big bucks for sure.Roody wrote:If the Indians lose Sabathia to a big market team because the rich get richer and the middle and lower markets can't compete then I will seriously consider swearing off MLB. Not sure it would be worth it. Watching Manny Ramirez, Jim Thome and then Sabathia leave due to money is just not cool. I'm tired of watching my team develop these guys and then other teams get the benefits only because they have more money to throw around.
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24giovanni
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- Joined: Wed Oct 04, 2006 1:03 pm
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24giovanni
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Because just like New York they can overpay anyone they want which in turn drives up the market and makes it impossible for alot of teams to compete for top free agents. It's a big reason why agents always mention the Yankees and Red Sox when their players are free agents. They know they can set a higher standard for their players when it comes to money.24giovanni wrote:Why is that?
The Yankees are not always guilty of raising the ceiling on player salaries.Roody wrote:Because just like New York they can overpay anyone they want which in turn drives up the market and makes it impossible for alot of teams to compete for top free agents. It's a big reason why agents always mention the Yankees and Red Sox when their players are free agents. They know they can set a higher standard for their players when it comes to money.
Hell_Yes
Luck is where preparation meets opportunity - Seneca
"Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'" - Isaac Asimov
It is my ambition to say in ten sentences what others say in a whole book. - Friedrich Nietzsche
I don't generally mind but we just financed a stadium up here and the fact 'the future' never seems to arrive is getting ridiculous.64bit wrote:The way its always been since free agency. I've learned to live with it. **** when the Blue Jays won the WS in 92 they had half the Indians team from the previous two years.....Money talks.
Typically, other teams are offering the record contracts.Roody wrote:Always? No. Most of the time? Yes.
Hell_Yes
Luck is where preparation meets opportunity - Seneca
"Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'" - Isaac Asimov
It is my ambition to say in ten sentences what others say in a whole book. - Friedrich Nietzsche
Still, it is not most of the time for the Yankees. They are most likely to overspend.Roody wrote:As they must if they want to compete with the Red Sox and Yankees. Of course those teams typically are the L.A. teams, Mets, Phillies or Chicago teams.
As for the other teams, Houston, Minnesota, Toronto, Seattle and Texas have all made history with their contracts.
Hell_Yes
Luck is where preparation meets opportunity - Seneca
"Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'" - Isaac Asimov
It is my ambition to say in ten sentences what others say in a whole book. - Friedrich Nietzsche