Retaining Wall

waferdog · Post by **waferdog** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 12:28 am

I am going to be building a railroad tie retaining wall in my backyard to extend my usable parking space by my garage. It will be a relatively large project: The wall will be around 4' tall and around 40' long with a few jigs and jags in the design. I, of course, do not really know what I am doing but I figured that this would be a pretty safe project and hard to really screw up.

So, any advice from people with experience in this sort of thing?

Sava700 · Post by **Sava700** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 1:08 am

I've seen some people use 4x4's to support the wall of ties just sit them down a few feet then stack against or in the middle of them or you can drill through and add rebar through them just weld a large nut on the top to hammer in and set up.

brembo · Post by **brembo** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 1:56 am

brace it well when you backfill

check local code on retaining walls

rent a small backhoe(200 for a weekend), shovels and back muscles SUCK

Croc · Post by **Croc** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 2:10 am

Stagger the ends so they interlock.
You can concrete some as uprights and then stack the wall behind them or hide the uprights by stacking in front.
At each layer, drive in a large spiral nail into the uprights @ 45 degrees down to hold the ties in place but pre-drill the holes for the nails to stop splitting timber or bending nails.
Before backfilling, coat the back with a longlife preservative.
Apart from yearly inspections for termites it should last for ages.

waferdog · Post by **waferdog** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 7:07 pm

Thanks for the feedback. I have a few questions to ask based on that, but I figured I should provide a little bit of an overview of what I am doing via pictures. You can see that I have laid out the general shape of the wall and measured it out. I spent some time today looking to acquire some ties from one of the local railroad company. It looks like I may be able to get them for free.

The plan:

From the south:

From the east:

From the the northeast:

From the west:

Randy · Post by **Randy** » Tue Jul 25, 2006 7:46 pm

what scale is that? j/k overlap rr ties and run rebar thru the holes and tie back b4 you back fill as suggested by Brembo other than that i think it would be hard to mess up.

Kip Patterson · Post by **Kip Patterson** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 2:04 am

The wall needs to be tied back into the fill or it will topple over in short orfer.

You might want to think about the liability that such a wall might create.

Mark · Post by **Mark** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 5:59 am

I also wonder about the root system of those trees, will the wall mess them up ?

TonyT · Post by **TonyT** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 12:54 pm

Kip Patterson wrote:The wall needs to be tied back into the fill or it will topple over in short orfer.
You might want to think about the liability that such a wall might create.

Correct! Turn a RR tie perpendicular to the face of the wall and extend it at LEAST 4' back for a wall that is 4' high. Use such a brace every 4'-6 ' of the entire wall, staggered in alternating rows. (else use cinder block & mortar for the wall won't last 5 good rainfalls without braces)

waferdog · Post by **waferdog** » Wed Jul 26, 2006 11:40 pm

Kip - Can you expound on your post about liability? I don't see why it would be a problem if well built.

Mark - I was wondering about the roots of the trees as well. In fact, I scaled back my original idea because of the roots, i just hope I am far enough off of them. Anyone have further input on this?

The common theme seems to be to make sure that the wall is braced sufficiently. Tony, I believe what you drew is called a deadman. I will definitely make sure to install more of those than is probably necessary, as well as having more spikes and rebar than necessary.

BTW - Randy, were you mocking my professional looking blueprint?

Mad_Haggis · Post by **Mad_Haggis** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 12:05 am

The use of railway ties has become very enviromentally unfriendly since the enviromentalists found out they are made with creasote. Check your laws...

Kip Patterson · Post by **Kip Patterson** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 1:06 am

My liability concern has to do with the possibility that a neighbor, child, delivery person, whoever, could walk off the edge. In some states you would be liable even if they were a drunken burglar. I think the name is "attractive nuisance".

A good arborist can help you with the tree question. Maybe there is a university nearby, or the city forester might help for free?

waferdog · Post by **waferdog** » Thu Jul 27, 2006 2:06 am

Kip Patterson wrote:My liability concern has to do with the possibility that a neighbor, child, delivery person, whoever, could walk off the edge. In some states you would be liable even if they were a drunken burglar. I think the name is "attractive nuisance".

A good arborist can help you with the tree question. Maybe there is a university nearby, or the city forester might help for free?

So the use of a rail would erase the liability concerns? Honestly, it wouldn't be more or less dangerous than what is currently there.

I will also look into the use of ties per the law (I do need to call the City to see if I need a building permit for this). If you look close in the pics you can see that the neighbor has a railroad tie retaining wall up. Of course, he built his two decades ago.

waferdog · Post by **waferdog** » Tue Aug 01, 2006 5:37 pm

Still working on this project and have another question - What is the best method for attaching ties to each other?

The options seem to be to use foot-long spikes and hammer each tie to the one below it in a couple of spots or to drill a hole through mutiple ties and sledge in some rebar to hold them together.

Or is it best to use both methods?

downhill · Post by **downhill** » Tue Aug 01, 2006 6:34 pm

Either/or will do.

I've built mabye a half dozen retaining walls with ties for the company I work for. All of them are around 30 years old now and doing fine. We didn't spike any of them together.

We just sunk a few 10 to 12 foot ties, about 5 feet deep and then stacked the ties against them and level, up to the height we needed.

waferdog · Post by **waferdog** » Tue Aug 01, 2006 7:54 pm

downhill wrote:Either/or will do.

I've built mabye a half dozen retaining walls with ties for the company I work for. All of them are around 30 years old now and doing fine. We didn't spike any of them together.

We just sunk a few 10 to 12 foot ties, about 5 feet deep and then stacked the ties against them and level, up to the height we needed.

So you actually sunk some ties on end on the outer part of the wall as the support piece? Assuming a guy could find long enough ties, this might seem like a pretty good method.

downhill · Post by **downhill** » Tue Aug 01, 2006 8:14 pm

Yep, that's all we did. Two ties per stack. Each about one foot from the ends. No nails and no rebar.

The only problem I see with this in your case is all them tree roots. Plus, you'll need a few longer ties. Older ties are 8 footers while the standard now, are 9 footers. Switch ties run from 10 foot to 30 foot. I won't say this method is better than what's been posted above. The wall in the above that others have posted , might be easier on the eyes as it's all smooth. You could also use poles to sink if you could find butt ends that have been treated.

waferdog · Post by **waferdog** » Tue Aug 22, 2006 12:34 am

A quick update on my progress:

The above is the net result of about 10 hours of work. These walls are not easy to do, especially when you have never done one before. Now that the first level is laid out, I suspect that things will go much smoother. Doing the earthwork and getting everything straight takes a fair amount of work. I also needed to go and buy a new chainsaw as the tools we had were inadequate.

downhill · Post by **downhill** » Tue Aug 22, 2006 12:49 am

Ties and chainsaws don't go together. I know it's the only way to cut them but they sure do dull a chain in a hurry. There's always grit embedded in the tie. In saying that, it's from experience. Just keep the file handy.

I take it by looking at it, that your spiking the ties together?

I might make one more suggeston. Stagger the ties so the ends aren't lined up the same. This will help tie the ends together.

For instance...the pic above? The next layer on the tie running right to left, should overlap the one running the length of your fill. Just like you did in the first pic.

Same for any ties running parallel to each other. Don't keep them all the same unless you have a tie buried to brace them against.

waferdog · Post by **waferdog** » Tue Aug 22, 2006 12:54 am

downhill wrote:Ties and chainsaws don't go together. I know it's the only way to cut them but they sure do dull a chain in a hurry. There's always grit embedded in the tie.

I take it by looking at it, that your spiking the ties together?

I might make one more suggeston. Stagger the ties so the ends aren't lined up the same. This will help tie the ends together.

For instance...the pic above? The next layer on the tie running right to left, should overlap the one running the length of your fill. Same for any ties running parallel to each other. Don't keep them all the same unless you have a tie buried to brace them against.

Unfortunately, the chainsaw is the only thing that works. I'm just planning on buying a new chain at the end of this project.

We are using 1/2" rebar to hold everything together. The base layer is being spike 2' deep and the ties themselves are being held together with 1' lengths.

We are going to overlap the end pieces. What you see in the second pic is not finished. I have to cut 8.5" inches off of the top tie to accomodate the next layer.

Post by **YeOldeStonecat** » Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:03 am

The one I built in front of my house...I tried to overlap as much as possible.
For example...in your above pic...that corner at the 5 oclock in the picture....you have one tie coming away from the house...then your parallel to the house row, as your first layer. I see you adding the second layer...the parallel row...the tie is right on top of the other one. What I did...was have the corners alternate overlapping. So I'd have a second layer perpendicular one of the house..coming all the way out flush to the outside..so it's end could spike into the parallel one. Lets them all interlink and become stronger. Important up where I am in the heavy frost zone.

Similar to this pic I found on images.google..

waferdog · Post by **waferdog** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 1:47 am

An update for those who have helped me with info on this:

The wall is almost complete, one course to go (the bottom picture actually shows two courses to go). This project has been tough and dirty, with all of my new equipment becoming old. Here are some visuals:

Kip Patterson · Post by **Kip Patterson** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 2:46 am

You didn't show any pictures of the new wheelbarrow you got for your wife so she could do her part of the job!

downhill · Post by **downhill** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 5:48 am

Kip Patterson wrote:You didn't show any pictures of the new wheelbarrow you got for your wife so she could do her part of the job!

Nice looking retaining wall. That thing isn't going anywhere.

Post by **YeOldeStonecat** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 7:12 am

Looks great..nice!

Humboldt · Post by **Humboldt** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 1:09 pm

Looks great so far

Gives you somewhere to bury your garbage while you're at it, always a plus.

downhill · Post by **downhill** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 1:41 pm

Like Kip mentioned, I'm pretty sure that code here, would have you putting up a railing around it.

waferdog · Post by **waferdog** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 5:39 pm

I definitely am going to throw some garbage in there, actually some broken up concrete that I am going to replace. I also am going to drop a small time capsule in there for whoever digs it up in fifty years.

downhill wrote:Like Kip mentioned, I'm pretty sure that code here, would have you putting up a railing around it.

I am going to put up a railing once it is filled in, I just need to figure out what I want to make it out of.

YARDofSTUF · Post by **YARDofSTUF** » Mon Sep 04, 2006 5:53 pm

waferdog wrote:I also am going to drop a small time capsule in there for whoever digs it up in fifty years.

Put SG's URL in there!

waferdog · Post by **waferdog** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 12:11 am

Almost final Update!

The wall is mostly constructed (I need to go and put some more rebar into the top layer) and fairly well filled in thanks to some free fill and some concrete I broke up behind the house. Thanks to all here who helped me with advice. I will probably post a few more pics when I get the fill leveled out and some class 5 in on top of that. Here are the visuals (caution - lots of pics follow):

waferdog · Post by **waferdog** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 12:12 am

mountainman · Post by **mountainman** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 12:35 am

Looks good! What are you going to put around edge so people parking don't go over the edge?

waferdog · Post by **waferdog** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 12:44 am

Well, the top layer of gravel will be a good 6" inches below the top of the ties, so there should be a good barrier there. Besides, I figure people learn by making mistakes.

TonyT · Post by **TonyT** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 6:17 am

If you plan on actually putting any kind of weight on it (car) then I suggest renting a tamper & packing down that dirt real good prior to laying gravel, else the level will recede fairly quickly. In 6 months you'll have to put on more gravel, and repeat every so often. One or two good rains is all it takes to drop the level a few inches. Instead of gravel I'd use crushed stone, it's more 'powdery" and will stay in place better. Gravel, even pea gravel, will end up on the existing driveway & lawn & you'll have to sweep often. Looks great, well done!

waferdog · Post by **waferdog** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 1:18 pm

TonyT wrote:If you plan on actually putting any kind of weight on it (car) then I suggest renting a tamper & packing down that dirt real good prior to laying gravel, else the level will recede fairly quickly. In 6 months you'll have to put on more gravel, and repeat every so often. One or two good rains is all it takes to drop the level a few inches. Instead of gravel I'd use crushed stone, it's more 'powdery" and will stay in place better. Gravel, even pea gravel, will end up on the existing driveway & lawn & you'll have to sweep often. Looks great, well done!

That's helpful as this is the next step in the project. My current plan is to actually get it blacktopped (as well as redo the blacktop I already have) but figured I should give the fill some time to pack itself in prior to the asphalt. Ifigured I would put a top layer on the fill over the winter as a temp measure to prevent a muddy mess when it gets wet back there.

Humboldt · Post by **Humboldt** » Tue Sep 12, 2006 8:52 pm

TonyT wrote:If you plan on actually putting any kind of weight on it (car) then I suggest renting a tamper & packing down that dirt real good prior to laying gravel, else the level will recede fairly quickly.

Hell, it'd be a lot cheaper to buy a keg, invite a bunch of guys and trini's mom over.

That ground would get "tamped" to hell and back.