Hi friends,
"freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose"
This reminds me of the monkey with his hand in the jar holding the grapes. As long as he holds on to those grapes, he will never be free of the vase which imprisons his hand that grips the grapes. He can only be totally free when he lets go of the grapes inside the jar.
You know I think our purpose is not to find our purpose for being here, but to take the journey and make our fellow travelers as comfortable as we are able.
What we will finally be judged on will not be if we found our purpose or not, but how did we treat the fellow standing next to us, he no more wanted to be born than you or I.
Philosophically speaking about our purpose.
) 
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YARDofSTUF
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We wont be judged on anything, life is life, you get to make ur choices, and its your own judgement that matters there.Sarahnn wrote:Hi friends,
"freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose"
This reminds me of the monkey with his hand in the jar holding the grapes. As long as he holds on to those grapes, he will never be free of the vase which imprisons his hand that grips the grapes. He can only be totally free when he lets go of the grapes inside the jar.
You know I think our purpose is not to find our purpose for being here, but to take the journey and make our fellow travelers as comfortable as we are able.
What we will finally be judged on will not be if we found our purpose or not, but how did we treat the fellow standing next to us, he no more wanted to be born than you or I.
The monkey is not mentally and physically fit to survive and it will die with its hand in the jar, or it will let go and kill itself for not being able to have them and feeling like its life is meaningless, all because it was too stupid to break the jar or manipulate it in other ways.
If "freedom" as by your definition, is the last thing a person has to lose, they should probably kill themselves, but then I dont have to tell them that, because anyone with just "freedom" left has no respect for themselves.
If you have respect for yourself, then you still have something more than just "freedom"
Kristopherson was a heck of a songwriter in his "youth".
Janis took that song and made it a classic. I never got a chance to hear a live show with Janis but there's a gal near here, who can do a great "Janis" impersonation. Killer to hear her sing.
I've seen Big Brother right after Janis left. It wasn't much of a show.
Back to topic....
Janis took that song and made it a classic. I never got a chance to hear a live show with Janis but there's a gal near here, who can do a great "Janis" impersonation. Killer to hear her sing.
I've seen Big Brother right after Janis left. It wasn't much of a show.
Back to topic....
Can't say I disagree with this. I'm still figuring the tie-in though.What we will finally be judged on will not be if we found our purpose or not, but how did we treat the fellow standing next to us, he no more wanted to be born than you or I.
A famous riposte from Hermann Goering.
Goering: Why, of course, the people don't want war. Why would some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best that he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece?
Naturally, the common people don't want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship.
Gilbert: There is one difference. In a democracy the people have some say in the matter through their elected representatives, and in the United States only Congress can declare wars.
Goering: Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.
Goering: Why, of course, the people don't want war. Why would some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best that he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece?
Naturally, the common people don't want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship.
Gilbert: There is one difference. In a democracy the people have some say in the matter through their elected representatives, and in the United States only Congress can declare wars.
Goering: Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.
Hell_Yes
Luck is where preparation meets opportunity - Seneca
"Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'" - Isaac Asimov
It is my ambition to say in ten sentences what others say in a whole book. - Friedrich Nietzsche
[quote="Hell_Yes"]A famous riposte from Hermann Goering.
Goering: Why, of course, the people don't want war. Why would some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best that he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece?
Naturally, the common people don't want war]
This, I believe, has resulted in failure. If no one wins a war.... then, by definition, Goering was wrong. It still boils down to choice....IMHO
Goering: Why, of course, the people don't want war. Why would some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best that he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece?
Naturally, the common people don't want war]
This, I believe, has resulted in failure. If no one wins a war.... then, by definition, Goering was wrong. It still boils down to choice....IMHO
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YARDofSTUF
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Goering was a man whose country had no enemies. And they clearly were not being attacked. Since this is the case, we can hardly quote a madman to avoid all future conflicts. For example, Kuwait and Iran and Israel were attacked. Goering's trump card was not in manipulating the people to war, but creating a target to hate, an innocent scapegoat, if you will.Hell_Yes wrote:
Goering: Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.
The tie-in to what?downhill wrote:Kristopherson was a heck of a songwriter in his "youth".
Janis took that song and made it a classic. I never got a chance to hear a live show with Janis but there's a gal near here, who can do a great "Janis" impersonation. Killer to hear her sing.
I've seen Big Brother right after Janis left. It wasn't much of a show.
Back to topic....
Can't say I disagree with this. I'm still figuring the tie-in though.
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SherriBabee
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No, I thought it up myself in response on another board to a man who was questioning what life was all about and what our purpose is.Unholy wrote:"Give me freedom or give me death."
You got that off of a spam mail or something?
He said we are free to pursue happiness. Maybe that's the tie-in Downhill was asking about?
Goering was not one of Hitler's hate-mongers.Sarahnn wrote:Goering was a man whose country had no enemies. And they clearly were not being attacked. Since this is the case, we can hardly quote a madman to avoid all future conflicts. For example, Kuwait and Iran and Israel were attacked. Goering's trump card was not in manipulating the people to war, but creating a target to hate, an innocent scapegoat, if you will.
The idea is that freedom is an illusion when we are still left to respond reflexively to our environment.
Hell_Yes
Luck is where preparation meets opportunity - Seneca
"Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'" - Isaac Asimov
It is my ambition to say in ten sentences what others say in a whole book. - Friedrich Nietzsche
Well, let's take a look at what freedom is...
Freedom, all by itself is a useless & meaningless concept. Freedom to... & freedom from... are the freedoms that should be sought.
All too often folks cry for freedom, but have no clue just why they are seeking it, they are just repressed or suppressed in some fashion and so seek freedom but do not understand the quest.
Life can be likened to a game. A game consists of freedoms, goals & barriers. Each of those facets of a game has no value all by itself.
For example, one has a goal to "be rich". That's a pipe dream unless one also has an understanding of what stands in the way of achieving the goal (barriers) & also understand the rules (freedoms). The freedoms are "what am I ethically or morally permitted to do to effectively reach my goal".
Freedom, as a subject is grossly misunderstood in the US. The constitution talks of freedoms & rights. The govt has been systematically reducing our freedoms in an effort to create a population of herded sheep. (an uneducated public cannot detect, expose & handle criminal leaders)
Freedoms are entirely our choice, they exist in what ever game we choose to play, and they exist in games that we are born into, and they exist in games that we resist playing: examples are taxes, unjust laws, etc).
Drop out of a game & you lose the freedoms. Stay in the game, fight for what you believe, maintain your personal integrity and the freedoms are there to be enjoyed. Freedoms are not the result of winning the game but rather are just a component of a game.
aside:
Happiness comes from the overcoming of obstacles (barriers) toward the attainment of a goal. Happiness does not come about by winning, it comes about by the things one does in an effort to achieve the victory.
Any action in Life can be viewed as part of one game or another, be it a video game, one's job, studenting, sports, marriage, raising kids, fishing, etc. Sometimes the fish bite & sometimes your kids scuff their knees, it's just part of the game.
edit:
Kris Kristoferson's freedom in the song Bobby McGee is true only for the broken hearted...whereas maybe Bobby McGee was overjoyed to be free from the partner!
here's one from Robert Hunter:
Ooo, freedom
Ooo, liberty
Ooo, leave me alone
To find my own way home
Freedom, all by itself is a useless & meaningless concept. Freedom to... & freedom from... are the freedoms that should be sought.
All too often folks cry for freedom, but have no clue just why they are seeking it, they are just repressed or suppressed in some fashion and so seek freedom but do not understand the quest.
Life can be likened to a game. A game consists of freedoms, goals & barriers. Each of those facets of a game has no value all by itself.
For example, one has a goal to "be rich". That's a pipe dream unless one also has an understanding of what stands in the way of achieving the goal (barriers) & also understand the rules (freedoms). The freedoms are "what am I ethically or morally permitted to do to effectively reach my goal".
Freedom, as a subject is grossly misunderstood in the US. The constitution talks of freedoms & rights. The govt has been systematically reducing our freedoms in an effort to create a population of herded sheep. (an uneducated public cannot detect, expose & handle criminal leaders)
Freedoms are entirely our choice, they exist in what ever game we choose to play, and they exist in games that we are born into, and they exist in games that we resist playing: examples are taxes, unjust laws, etc).
Drop out of a game & you lose the freedoms. Stay in the game, fight for what you believe, maintain your personal integrity and the freedoms are there to be enjoyed. Freedoms are not the result of winning the game but rather are just a component of a game.
aside:
Happiness comes from the overcoming of obstacles (barriers) toward the attainment of a goal. Happiness does not come about by winning, it comes about by the things one does in an effort to achieve the victory.
Any action in Life can be viewed as part of one game or another, be it a video game, one's job, studenting, sports, marriage, raising kids, fishing, etc. Sometimes the fish bite & sometimes your kids scuff their knees, it's just part of the game.
edit:
Kris Kristoferson's freedom in the song Bobby McGee is true only for the broken hearted...whereas maybe Bobby McGee was overjoyed to be free from the partner!
here's one from Robert Hunter:
Ooo, freedom
Ooo, liberty
Ooo, leave me alone
To find my own way home
No one has any right to force data on you
and command you to believe it or else.
If it is not true for you, it isn't true.
LRH
and command you to believe it or else.
If it is not true for you, it isn't true.
LRH
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YeOldeStonecat
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Sarahnn wrote:
"freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose"
This reminds me of the monkey with his hand in the jar holding the grapes. As long as he holds on to those grapes, he will never be free of the vase which imprisons his hand that grips the grapes. He can only be totally free when he lets go of the grapes inside the jar..
Or....the monkey can eat the grapes. The ingestion of the juice will make him want to urinate later...let the water go free, something he's free to do. And the seeds...surely later he'll have to defecate...something he's free to do...and thus..setting the grape seeds free..to sprout another grape vine..so that more monkeys can eat more grapes.
Meanwhile...I'm free to go make some money..so I can go to the market and get a fat slab of steak.
MORNING WOOD Lumber Company
Guinness for Strength!!!
Guinness for Strength!!!
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YARDofSTUF
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downhill wrote:Eh? More please. I'm not sure I follow that, Izzo.
I do believe that Goering illustrated a good point. It's not so much about war and IF anyone wants to fight but how you can minipulate people to fight for a cause they might not believe in. Win or loose.
What I was trying to say is that no matter what you do/say to manipulate the masses it still boils down to choice ..now whether or not that person is making an informed decision is another thing.....not everyone is going to tow the party line ...the Nazi's eliminated their opposition and so have countless others throughout history to further help their propaganda....Why are we here? ...No one will ever know.
Deep sheeit, man.YeOldeStonecat wrote:Or....the monkey can eat the grapes. The ingestion of the juice will make him want to urinate later...let the water go free, something he's free to do. And the seeds...surely later he'll have to defecate...something he's free to do...and thus..setting the grape seeds free..to sprout another grape vine..so that more monkeys can eat more grapes.
Meanwhile...I'm free to go make some money..so I can go to the market and get a fat slab of steak.
