I'm at a cross road between my Faith and Homosexual Marriages

Brent · Post by **Brent** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 2:31 pm

I had a good chat last Wednesday with my very good Youth Minister friend of mine as we were on a 5 hour trip to west Texas to pick up lots of Pumpkins for the youth at the Church to sell.

We got talking about Kerry and Bush and he explained to me why he isn't voting at all this election, and his explanations opened up my mind and now I'm in conflict.

He isn't voting for Bush because some of what Bush is proposing or wanting goes against his faith, and one area specifically is to ban Homosexual marriages.

See, he said that the Bible tells us not to Judge others, it isn't our place. The rules of Christians who have accepted Jesus into their lives are different from non-believers. We cannot impose our rules on them because we follow different rules. He cannot vote for someone that imposes those rules on others when that is not our job as Christians!

Our job is to bring others to Christ, and that can't happen if you alienate someone and turn them off instantly by saying you cannot marry the person you love.

So I am conflicting in my brain, my Faith tells me it is wrong, but yet I shouldn't impose that belief on non-believers.

I think I'm leaning toward not letting it be an issue, i.e., stop fighting against it, if the non-believers want the right to marry whoever, let them, after all we are under a different law than non-believes, we cannot impose or judge our beliefs onto them. All we can do is show by action.

I think that is the ‘right’ approach, because when he explained it, it really made a lot of sense, and he is the most awesomeness Christian I’ve ever met, very devoted, very faithful, he knows the Bible inside and out.

Annalysa · Post by **Annalysa** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 2:37 pm

Not to be a pain but, isnt saying non believers are not going to heaven judging people too? I mean what if they believe in somethings and not others? What if they live a good life and help others, but are not over consumed with the concept of religion? I just want to know what you think about that those questions brent?

downhill · Post by **downhill** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 2:37 pm

Kip said it in another thread......Lean more toward civil unions and let the churches decide for themselves as to a religious union.

I think too many people confuse the two.

Annalysa · Post by **Annalysa** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 2:38 pm

that makes alot of sense DH

cho · Post by **cho** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 2:42 pm

Brent wrote: I think I'm leaning toward not letting it be an issue, i.e., stop fighting against it, if the non-believers want the right to marry whoever, let them, after all we are under a different law than non-believes, we cannot impose or judge our beliefs onto them. All we can do is show by action.

That is probably one of the best religious posts I've read on this site. It shows tolerance, yet you still manage to stand by your guns.

Your Minister seems like a very smart man...I hope their are more like him around.

Brent · Post by **Brent** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 2:43 pm

Annalysa wrote:Not to be a pain but, isnt saying non believers are not going to heaven judging people too?

Going with what I said above we shouldn't come out and say that "you are going to Hell" I mean that would turn anybody off and alienate them. (been there done that

)

Agreed that it isn't our place to Judge, therefore one should never bring up or say you are going to heaven or you are going to hell, cause honestly its not our place.

I mean what if they believe in somethings and not others? What if they live a good life and help others, but are not over consumed with the concept of religion?

There are all types of people who believe all types of things, that's for sure.

BTW me personally I'm not consumed with the concept of religion, for me my walk and connection with Jesus Christ is my consumption.

Anyways, this discussion wasn't to get into a big religious thing about Heaven or Hell, it was specifically regarding Homosexual Marriage Rights.

cho · Post by **cho** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 2:43 pm

Annalysa wrote:Not to be a pain but, isnt saying non believers are not going to heaven judging people too? I mean what if they believe in somethings and not others? What if they live a good life and help others, but are not over consumed with the concept of religion? I just want to know what you think about that those questions brent?

How can you go somewhere if you don't believe it though? If they don't believe in Heaven/Hell and God then by being judge as not allowed into Heaven it shouldn't bother them.

If they do believe in their own version of the after life I'm sure they will get there. I know I will.

striker8000 · Post by **striker8000** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 2:48 pm

All I want in this life is:
the strength to change the things that need to be changed,
the virtue to leave alone that which should not be changed,
and the wisdom to know the difference.

A very old prayer that might help you on this part of your journey.

Annalysa · Post by **Annalysa** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 2:48 pm

Thanks. I just wanted to know your opinion on that. Sorry for asking in an inappropriate area.

Brent · Post by **Brent** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 2:49 pm

striker8000 wrote:All I want in this life is:
the strength to change the things that need to be changed,
the virtue to leave alone that which should not be changed,
and the wisdom to know the difference.

A very old prayer that might help you on this part of your journey.

that's awesome

tr87526 · Post by **tr87526** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 2:53 pm

Brent, he is wrong.... we are to love and help EVERYONE, but we can not accept sin. Being against same sex marriage (homosexual) is not a racist thing as other have mentioned here.

Gender, race and impairment all relate to what a person is, whereas homosexuality relates to what a person does.

You can not accept same sex marriage because God commands us to
'Be fruitful and multiply; fill the earth" and

God gave man and woman complementary roles in order to strengthen the family unit. Woman was to be the helper that man needed However, the woman's role as the helpmate is certainly not an inferior one.

As with all moral issues, our beliefs about our origin determine our attitude. If we believe that we arose from slime by a combination of random chance events and the struggle for survival, it is understandable to say that there is no higher authority, and we can make our own rules.

However, if there is a loving God who planned us and gave commands for us to follow, then we must do so. God has set forth His standards in the Bible, beginning with the foundational teaching in the book of Genesis.

Once again, love everyone, help everyone, pray and you can judge when it is in direct conflict with Gods laws.

striker8000 · Post by **striker8000** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 2:54 pm

believe it or not: I don't follow any one religion.

Brent · Post by **Brent** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 3:05 pm

[quote="tr87526"]Brent, he is wrong.... we are to love and help EVERYONE, but we can not accept sin. Being against same sex marriage (homosexual) is not a racist thing as other have mentioned here.

Gender, race and impairment all relate to what a person is, whereas homosexuality relates to what a person does.

You can not accept same sex marriage because God commands us to
'Be fruitful and multiply]

but in the Bible Jesus never specificially mentions homosexuality

only Paul does in his letters

remember, we are living in a new testament world

personally I don't agree with homosexuality, but i can't impose laws like that on non-believers

i need to do more research and praying about this for sure, but at this point I think his points are valid

Ghosthunter · Post by **Ghosthunter** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 3:08 pm

*cho* wrote:That is probably one of the best religious posts I've read on this site. It shows tolerance, yet you still manage to stand by your guns.

Your Minister seems like a very smart man...I hope their are more like him around.

I second that!!!

That is one of the best religious posts I have seen in a long time.

Way to go Brent!!!!

emilyb · Post by **emilyb** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 3:15 pm

Brent,
I think that the first thing you should study on and pray about is the notion that unbelievers are to follow different laws. I don't think that is Biblical at all. If anything, non-believers are the very ones who are held more strictly to the law, because they are not redeemed by faith. In the end, EVERY knee will bow and EVERY tongue confess, everyone judged according to their works. Having a belief in what is right and wrong IS NOT judging someone. God has already declared that homosexuality is wrong, and yes, although with Jesus came the new testament, the God of yesterday is still the God of today and forever. Just some thoughts!

tao_jones · Post by **tao_jones** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 3:17 pm

[quote="tr87526"]Brent, he is wrong.... we are to love and help EVERYONE, but we can not accept sin. Being against same sex marriage (homosexual) is not a racist thing as other have mentioned here.

Gender, race and impairment all relate to what a person is, whereas homosexuality relates to what a person does.

You can not accept same sex marriage because God commands us to
'Be fruitful and multiply]

I think the point that is missing is that this is their legal right to get married and have it recognized it by the state not the church.

Kip Patterson · Post by **Kip Patterson** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 3:53 pm

It seems to me that the issue for many people is the use of the word "marriage" for a homosexual union.

Many people view it as a religious term, something that has great religious meaning to them. Fine, I have no trouble with that. As far as I am concerned in can mean a different thing in each religion and sect, and they can govern marriage as they see fit.

If, however, we choose to make marriage a religious word, which I am in favor of, then we have to deal with the many legal issues predicated on marriage, including inheritance, taxes, survivor benefits, medical care, etc. Not easy, but that is in my opinion the way to go.

ScottE · Post by **ScottE** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 4:09 pm

striker8000 wrote:All I want in this life is:
the strength to change the things that need to be changed,
the virtue to leave alone that which should not be changed,
and the wisdom to know the difference.

A very old prayer that might help you on this part of your journey.

Paraphrase of the Serenity Prayer

God, grant me the serenity
To accept the things I cannot change,
Courage to change the things I can,
and wisdom to know the difference.

Blisster · Post by **Blisster** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 5:06 pm

congratulations Brent!!! That is a major breakthrough and I am so happy to hear it! You are growing and gaining wisdom with age, and it shows in theis very thread. GG.

JawZ · Post by **JawZ** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 6:25 pm

Brent, awesome post. My gut feeling tells me to agree with you and I do. As others have said....good for you. It seems that you have gained something by talking to this man....and as the old saying goes...the lord works in mysterious ways.

My own personal opinion and solution to this which is fair to everyone is for the government to get OUT COMPLETELY and fully from the institution and recognition of marriage. The government has no business in marriage at all.

So if anyone can tell me what purpose is served by government recognition of marriage I'd love to hear it.

saved · Post by **saved** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 6:54 pm

Brent wrote:I had a good chat last Wednesday with my very good Youth Minister friend of mine as we were on a 5 hour trip to west Texas to pick up lots of Pumpkins for the youth at the Church to sell.

We got talking about Kerry and Bush and he explained to me why he isn't voting at all this election, and his explanations opened up my mind and now I'm in conflict.

He isn't voting for Bush because some of what Bush is proposing or wanting goes against his faith, and one area specifically is to ban Homosexual marriages.

See, he said that the Bible tells us not to Judge others, it isn't our place. The rules of Christians who have accepted Jesus into their lives are different from non-believers. We cannot impose our rules on them because we follow different rules. He cannot vote for someone that imposes those rules on others when that is not our job as Christians!

Our job is to bring others to Christ, and that can't happen if you alienate someone and turn them off instantly by saying you cannot marry the person you love.

So I am conflicting in my brain, my Faith tells me it is wrong, but yet I shouldn't impose that belief on non-believers.

I think I'm leaning toward not letting it be an issue, i.e., stop fighting against it, if the non-believers want the right to marry whoever, let them, after all we are under a different law than non-believes, we cannot impose or judge our beliefs onto them. All we can do is show by action.

I think that is the ‘right’ approach, because when he explained it, it really made a lot of sense, and he is the most awesomeness Christian I’ve ever met, very devoted, very faithful, he knows the Bible inside and out.

Brent,
the bible does not say what your friend said. It does not even hint that we are not to make laws that agree with God's law and require even the lsot to obey it. We are to be the salt of the earth and that means we are to uphold every moral law of God and seek to have it the law of the land in s free democratic society. If yuor friend upholds homosexual marriage he stands against God not with Him. I suggest that yuo take a stand with God and let your friend go by the wayside.

By the way. If this is the most "awesomeness Christian" you have ever met then perhaps you have never met a real Christian. This guy clearly knows nothing about the bible or the Lord.

Blisster · Post by **Blisster** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 6:56 pm

why don't you jsut shut the fvck up saved. You input is NOT welcome here, go troll another BB

saved · Post by **saved** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 6:58 pm

Blisster wrote:why don't you jsut shut the fvck up saved. You input is NOT welcome here, go troll another BB

God bless, Jesus loves you.

sito · Post by **sito** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 7:04 pm

Follow the love, not the peasant bomber.

sito · Post by **sito** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 7:08 pm

saved wrote:God bless, Jesus loves you.

Did he still love me when I looked up at the heavens and told him he was a fraud?

If he did. I've got more to tell him.

wee96 · Post by **wee96** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 7:22 pm

tr87526 wrote:Brent, he is wrong.... we are to love and help EVERYONE, but we can not accept sin. .

Dont you "christians" have to "accept" that you are sinners? If thats true then your statement makes no sense, because "everyone" sins..

Leatherneck · Post by **Leatherneck** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 7:30 pm

I read the first page and got the jyst of the topic. it certainly isn't a new issue and will never be agreed on by all.

Personally I think some people are missing the intent. All I care about is protecting the sanctity of marriage between heterosexuals. If Homosexuals want to be lifelong partners and make a promise of remaining faithful sexually, then so be it, but I am with DH (I think) in saying that a church marriage is not necessary. Since it is pretty well accepted that the Christian Bible does not condone homosexuality, why would someone want to take a vow in the presence of a God that created 1 man and 1 woman, perfect sexual partners with the ability to procreate with no outside involvement? I see no reason to recognize homosexual marriage in the same light as heterosexual marriage.

Why the huge push now? Is this what a hip, "progressive" society is defined by? You know, my Grand Dad was pretty darn cool in his day even without a gay lover, spikes screwed into his head, artificial horns, earlobe stretchers, a forked toungue, 37 tattoos, and an STD. Yeah, Grand Dad was pretty cool just being himself. Gee you think there is a bit of a lack of self esteem and direction these days? Reality shows, shock factor, sexual exploits - gotta have more & more or we are bored!

YET, we are all different and just trying to find our way. That I accept. Some take the high road, some the low. Others take shortcuts and some never find their way. What do I know? I'm just a straight, middle class, white, married, retired Marine, Daddy, blue collar, Christian man, so I guess that makes me a fuddy, duddy, boring, nerdy minority?

saved · Post by **saved** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 7:30 pm

sitosterol wrote:Did he still love me when I looked up at the heavens and told him he was a fraud?

If he did. I've got more to tell him.

Yes he loves you.

saved · Post by **saved** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 7:32 pm

wee96 wrote:Dont you "christians" have to "accept" that you are sinners? If thats true then your statement makes no sense, because "everyone" sins..

Sinning from time to time and accepting sin as the way to carry on is two different things.

sito · Post by **sito** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 7:34 pm

bigmo66 wrote:I read the first page and got the jyst of the topic. it certainly isn't a new issue and will never be agreed on by all.

Personally I think some people are missing the intent. All I care about is protecting the sanctity of marriage between heterosexuals. If Homosexuals want to be lifelong partners and make a promise of remaining faithful sexually, then so be it, but I am with DH (I think) in saying that a church marriage is not necessary. Since it is pretty well accepted that the Christian Bible does not condone homosexuality, why would someone want to take a vow in the presence of a God that created 1 man and 1 woman, perfect sexual partners with the ability to procreate with no outside involvement? I see no reason to recognize homosexual marriage in the same light as heterosexual marriage.

Why the huge push now? Is this what a hip, "progressive" society is defined by? You know, my Grand Dad was pretty darn cool in his day even without a gay lover, spikes screwed into his head, artificial horns, earlobe stretchers, a forked toungue, 37 tattoos, and an STD. Yeah, Grand Dad was pretty cool just being himself. Gee you think there is a bit of a lack of self esteem and direction these days? Reality shows, shock factor, sexual exploits - gotta have more & more or we are bored!

YET, we are all different and just trying to find our way. That I accept. Some take the high road, some the low. Others take shortcuts and some never find their way. What do I know? I'm just a straight, middle class, white, married, retired Marine, Daddy, blue collar, Christian man, so I guess that makes me a fuddy, duddy, boring, nerdy minority?

The modern hip way of living you talk about. I call it live and let live.

Paft · Post by **Paft** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 7:35 pm

saved wrote:Yes he loves you.

Well tell him to wear a condom, I'm sick of his STDs!

sito · Post by **sito** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 7:35 pm

saved wrote:Yes he loves you.

Then wtf am I worried about? I'm gonna go sin my ass off! Or is there a quantitative limit?

Zilog B · Post by **Zilog B** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 7:42 pm

Leatherneck · Post by **Leatherneck** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 7:44 pm

sitosterol wrote:The modern hip way of living you talk about. I call it live and let live.

Nah, that's a cop-out. Too easy. There is a rule for all life. If your Son developed AIDS at the age of 13 because of "casual sex", would you look into his dying eyes and condone the very thing that is killing him? "Hey son, at least you lived life to the fullest and got you some." No, that's ignorant and irresponsible as a parent. Same goes for all people capable of making their own decisions. Live and let live is too loose of a statement. It works fine for people you could care less about, but it doesn't change the seriousness of some activities. The wrong choice always hurts somebody.

Leatherneck · Post by **Leatherneck** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 7:48 pm

Paft wrote:Well tell him to wear a condom, I'm sick of his STDs!

Why, how many have you had

Seriously Paft, I know that you know a lot about Christianity and you also know that according to the Bible, we made the choice to sin thus bringing a whole lot of doo doo upon ourselves. STDs would have never probably came to be if it were not for promiscuity. Don't forget our free will, good stuff.

sito · Post by **sito** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 7:49 pm

bigmo66 wrote:Nah, that's a cop-out. Too easy. There is a rule for all life. If your Son developed AIDS at the age of 13 because of "casual sex", would you look into his dying eyes and condone the very thing that is killing him? "Hey son, at least you lived life to the fullest and got you some." No, that's ignorant and irresponsible as a parent. Same goes for all people capable of making their own decisions. Live and let live is too loose of a statement. It works fine for people you could care less about, but it doesn't change the seriousness of some activities. The wrong choice always hurts somebody.

I dunno where this comes from as a reply, but you've never had casual sex? Sorry man.

Ask any horny animal what their rule to life is....

sito · Post by **sito** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 7:53 pm

So is the saying now, live and judge others? lol

Look, A man could chip another man straight in the ass like a jack hammer, if that's their love, who the fvck am I to say?

sito · Post by **sito** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 7:55 pm

Can you teach a lion thou shall not kill?

Leatherneck · Post by **Leatherneck** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 7:57 pm

sitosterol wrote:I dunno where this comes from as a reply, but you've never had casual sex? Sorry man.

I'm no hypocrite or finger pointer. Yes, I have had pre-marital sex and I wish I could do take it back given the knowledge that I have now. I am terrified because I have 2 daughters that I cherish and the thought of them being hurt or worse makes me sick to my stomach.

I'll bet if you asked for some honest opinions, there are plenty of folks that would admit that having your wife or husband for the first time as a married couple would be great. Granted, the first time didn't seem all that great performance wise, it's the sanctity and pureness of it. I blew it, but maybe my daughters won't.

Leatherneck · Post by **Leatherneck** » Thu Oct 28, 2004 7:58 pm

sitosterol wrote:So is the saying now, live and judge others? lol

Look, A man could chip another man straight in the ass like a jack hammer, if that's their love, who the fvck am I to say?

Ding ding ding ding! We have here John Kerry's new appointment to the Supreme Court