Sub Forum for Politics & Religion...

downhill · Post by **downhill** » Wed Sep 08, 2004 7:19 pm

Ghosthunter wrote:I say nothing wrong with debates as long people are civil to eachother and dont flame and call eachother names. Why as adults we cannot do that?

I mean IRL how many would act the same as we post?

I am not against the idea, I guess I just don't see how it would entirely help. I think there is more of an underlying issue if people cannot be respectable to others.

Good post, GH!

Brent · Post by **Brent** » Wed Sep 08, 2004 7:19 pm

Chris wrote:The General forum is exactly that, general, all encumpassing and not tech related.
I occasionally read the BS threads, but rarely post in them, The whole entertainment factor of the Gen Forum is the variety of the threads that are posted.
Fragmenting the gen forum could possibly kill the gen forum which would be a shame. We all got here because of the tech forums, but in most cases we stay because of the Gen Forum.
People complained about the pics in threads, so a media forum was created. That is rarely used except as a location for the Mods to move a thread that has pics. Great as a repository of picture threads but the timelyness of those threads is lost.
The only non technical forum that has a life of its own on SG is the Teams Forum. The reason that forum has a life of its own is due to the usefull nature of it.
As to arguing against Kens point of the additional work for mods, and the quick answer of " Well get more Mods ". The same peeps cry foul now when the Mods step in now, So adding more Mods will only increase the hard feelings created by additional Modding.
Keep the Gen Forum as it is now and always has been, and back off on the too quick modding, in some instances.

What they should have done is make the Media Forum a SUBFORUM of the General Discussion Forum

Then more people would visit it cause it really is more general than the rest of the main forum topics.

I'm tellin ya Ken/Philip, making use the subforums is not a bad idea.

Seriously, move the Media Forum as a subforum to the General Forum and I bet activity would pick up cause more people would see it who hang out in the General Forum.

Randy · Post by **Randy** » Wed Sep 08, 2004 7:25 pm

Ken

I dont like to talk about religion or politics. That is the main reason I would like to see a separate forum. It has nothing to do with heated debates or flaming.

religion = boring
politics = boring

get my point?

Randy

Ken · Post by **Ken** » Wed Sep 08, 2004 7:29 pm

Guys,
Thank you!

This discussion is the purpose of this thread and you guys are all contributing with good points that will be considered.

The main thing is to get as many members as possible to post what they want...

I have to run now. Keep it going and encourage everyone to state their feelings!

Thanks!
Ken

Roody · Post by **Roody** » Wed Sep 08, 2004 7:32 pm

Either or works fine for me. Ultimately though if you are to introduce a new MOD into this particular forum it's my view you need to find someone who generally has the respect of the majority of members as one can imagine this particular forum would have rather heated discussions and the last thing you want or need is a MOD that doesnt in general have the respect of the majority of members.

Post by **YeOldeStonecat** » Wed Sep 08, 2004 7:34 pm

I think having a forum subject for politics and religion only would be a nightmare. Man, us mods would have to live there full time, not to mention find enough time to police the other forums.

Also people will simply think they can go nuts, and abandon the regular forum rules, thinking that the pol/rel forum is exempt from them. Feeling they have less of a leash, they'd get super heated and crazy, lashing out against other members even more so.

What was the main purpose of Speedguide.Net again?

Oh yeah, broadband and other computer related stuff.

Computers and what not <===> Politics and Religion.

I can't find the similarity here...anyone wanna help?

General forum was put up for a place to cut loose a bit, loosen your tie, take off your shoes, and relax over some generalized topics. Kinda like "Cheers" the bar, or your local pub!

In my opinion, just the topics alone of politics, or religion, shouldn't be a bad thing, and wouldn't be out of line in the general forum. It's the fact that people can't seem to control themselves, get so heated, and build apparent hatred for those who don't follow the same creed as they do. I'll be danged if I'm ever going to hate someone for whatever political party they follow, or whatever religion they follow. If I like someone, I like someone, if I don't, I don't. Politics or religion are a person thing of there, I don't give a hoot.

Taking into consideration the above, creating a sub forum for "such causes" simply doesn't make sense. The reason pol/rel threads turn bad here...is the blatant disregard for others...and the resulting insults and flames. Regardless of what forum or sub division of...those are clearly against the rules. Creating a sub forum "almost make sense" if say...you wanted to create a place to post semi-racey pictures, since one of the biggest problems with those is they dont' bode well for those of US who are logged onto Speedguide from the workplace. But IMO, rel/pol threads don't cause that type of problem...it's the blatant insulting and flames that ooze from these threads that are bad. Rubs members the wrong way, regardless of what forum or sub forum they're in. If you call me names and insult my personal beliefs in "that forum"...what makes you think I'll be feeling good about you in the other forums?

In my opinion, creating a special place to piss off other people is not what Speedguide is about. We have one place to let loose a bit...if you can't behave there, "buh bye"!

Noevo · Post by **Noevo** » Wed Sep 08, 2004 7:38 pm

I don't know, I can already see a ton of "hey check this thread out in the ____ forum" post's that link to that forum. Then, that thread will become a second one feeding off of the other. If two or more people, one person in brembo's case, want to have a serious political/religious debate I would prefer it be right here so I can read and learn. If people can't stay civil, warn/temp ban them. same things going to happen in other forum anyway unless it's a no rules forum.

The way I see it, the problem isn't a political or religious thread per say, but propaganda type threads, hit and run, copy/paste no debate, etc... type stuff. Any hot topic thread here lately becomes more rhetoric and verbal vomit than actual thoughts. Granted, those threads are fun to hijack but that's about it. they usually lose the intent of the poster or the person replying by the end of the first page. and then come all the yo-yo's trying to hijack it *looks around innocently*and others eating they're damn popcorn (double butter please).

Keep it the way it is, and just tell people to grow up. Cut the propaganda and rhetoric and just discuss something if you'd like. my 2 cents worth.

PS- I second brembos "More women and a kegerator!" motion

Bastid · Post by **Bastid** » Wed Sep 08, 2004 7:43 pm

IMO, i dont think it will help...ppl will always be too bullheaded to change their minds, or to just listen to someone elses opinion...its just like hiding your dirty laundry...Chris said it best...

The General forum is exactly that, general, all encumpassing and not tech related.

if ppl dont want to deal with it they need to move on...its simple

why create more work for no gain....its still going to be there...it will just be down the stairs, through a dimly lit passageway, behind 5 locked doors, over the river and through the woods....get my point?

MadDoctor · Post by **MadDoctor** » Wed Sep 08, 2004 7:43 pm

Roody wrote: you want or need is a MOD that doesnt in general have the respect of the majority of members.

*wiggles tail at Burke (because he likes it... and PMs me about his animal fetish and need for pics)*

Guess that leaves me out as a mod.

Bastid · Post by **Bastid** » Wed Sep 08, 2004 7:48 pm

Noevo wrote:

PS- I second brembos "More women and a kegerator!" motion

agreed, but i thought that request would be moot for him....

i mean dont get me wrong, bully for the man but ...well ...yknow...

Ghosthunter · Post by **Ghosthunter** » Wed Sep 08, 2004 7:50 pm

Joint Chiefs of Staff wrote:Now that's a post I 100% agree on.

Thanks JCOS =)

Ghosthunter · Post by **Ghosthunter** » Wed Sep 08, 2004 7:51 pm

nepenthe wrote:Excellent points.

Thanks David =)

Ghosthunter · Post by **Ghosthunter** » Wed Sep 08, 2004 7:52 pm

downhill wrote:Good post, GH!

Thank you downhill =)

Norm · Post by **Norm** » Wed Sep 08, 2004 8:03 pm

No

It's much easier to ignore a post you don't like than to have a separate forum/subforum, and all that would entail.

Believe it or not, it's the flaming, and the infighting that most members enjoy most about coming here.

Check the view count on these threads and you'll see what I mean.

Blisster · Post by **Blisster** » Wed Sep 08, 2004 8:50 pm

my $.02

a sub-forum for debate and "Hot-Topics" would keep said content off the front page of the Gen. Forum, where new and potential members may wander and inadvertantly click on a particualrly heated debate and witness one of Burke's latest gems of rebuttal, or one of my sarcastic over-the-top replies or one of *******'s typical idiotic blatant flame of an ignorant response, and get turned off to the site, and denying US THE MEMBERSHIP the distinct pleasure of getting to know them and mocking there reposts and even attacking them viciously in the "Political and Religious Debate" sub-forum in the near future.

so, yeah.

thepieman · Post by **thepieman** » Wed Sep 08, 2004 9:08 pm

I don't see why a seperate forum needs to be made to keep the kids in line when they take a tantrum. If they wanna let people see them acting up in full view of everyone...they can be my guest.

I like the Jokes, Pics, tech stuff, the occasional Occult stuff, the conspiracy things, Cars, movies..as for the the religeous and political stuff ...ehh I can live with or without it.

Pie

Blisster · Post by **Blisster** » Wed Sep 08, 2004 9:19 pm

i don't think of it so much as an issue of keeping the kids in line or curtailing any sort of discussion. I think its jsut a way to keep heated and volatile subjects off the top of the list in the gen forum where casual passers-by are likely to look first.

The_Lurker · Post by **The_Lurker** » Wed Sep 08, 2004 9:34 pm

Ken wrote: Should we ask the staff to not post in a politics or religion thread?

no, maybe just separate staff from poster....ie.

have any mods or admins that post in such threads do so under a pseudonyme, another username and account. very easy for them to do, still voice there opinions and such their-by taking the ideas of having a overbearing mod/admin shoving their views down a users throat out of the picture.

just a idea.

The_Lurker · Post by **The_Lurker** » Wed Sep 08, 2004 9:40 pm

Ken wrote:If someone does not want to partake in one of those threads, just don't click on the thread... Simple...

how about having some kind of description tag in the thread title, something a poster can "click" to precede a posted title. is that possible with Vb?

that way it could give a viewer a better idea of said topic and whether they would like to click the link to read the post or not.

a thread poster could always post misleading titles (not necessarily on purpose) and then people would click to read and then it would be to late, they're wasting their time in a thread they want nothing to do with.

just more ideas..............

Norm · Post by **Norm** » Wed Sep 08, 2004 9:43 pm

The_Lurker wrote:no, maybe just separate staff from poster....ie.

have any mods or admins that post in such threads do so under a pseudonyme, another username and account. very easy for them to do, still voice there opinions and such their-by taking the ideas of having a overbearing mod/admin shoving their views down a users throat out of the picture.

just a idea.

In different words, I may have said close to the same thing.

Not that the Mods are imho 'overbearing', they're not.
The thing is, they ARE mods and ARE seen in a different light. Mods should only post AS moderatorss, and when moderating is needed.
Using a different account, in secret, to blend in and make friends would be a good idea. imho

That way when you see a moderator post something, you know it's being posted to warn, or moderate a situation.

The way it is now, sometimes you're left wondering if the mod is throwing thier weight around, or simply posting an opinion..

just a thought

The_Lurker · Post by **The_Lurker** » Wed Sep 08, 2004 9:51 pm

Blisster wrote:my $.02

a sub-forum for debate and "Hot-Topics" would keep said content off the front page of the Gen. Forum, where new and potential members may wander and inadvertantly click on a particualrly heated debate and witness one of Burke's latest gems of rebuttal, or one of my sarcastic over-the-top replies or one of *******'s typical idiotic blatant flame of an ignorant response, and get turned off to the site, and denying US THE MEMBERSHIP the distinct pleasure of getting to know them and mocking there reposts and even attacking them viciously in the "Political and Religious Debate" sub-forum in the near future.

so, yeah.

ROTFL i like the way you put it!

ok, after reading Blissters post, i change my mind and now voice my opinion, sub forum! WOOT!

cableboy · Post by **cableboy** » Wed Sep 08, 2004 9:58 pm

The_Lurker wrote:no, maybe just separate staff from poster....ie.

have any mods or admins that post in such threads do so under a pseudonyme, another username and account. very easy for them to do

Norm wrote:In different words, I may have said close to the same thing.

Not that the Mods are imho 'overbearing', they're not.
The thing is, they ARE mods and ARE seen in a different light. Mods should only post AS moderatorss, and when moderating is needed.
Using a different account, in secret, to blend in and make friends would be a good idea. imho

That way when you see a moderator post something, you know it's being posted to warn, or moderate a situation.

The way it is now, sometimes you're left wondering if the mod is throwing thier weight around, or simply posting an opinion..

just a thought

I am sekrat

LOL INTERNET

lance-tek · Post by **lance-tek** » Wed Sep 08, 2004 9:59 pm

I don't think anyone here will be able to find a post where I have stated my political views. I may very well have stated that I do believe in God. But other than that, I haven't said much about it.

The main reason I guess, is because religion is not something that I want to talk about to someone without being face to face. I sometimes am compassionate about the things I say and that is one area where I don't want to not be able to see all forms of communication.

Politics - well, I serve no matter who is in command, that is what I do.

I am not educated enough on politics to keep a good discussion going about people and their views ... to me it is a boring topic. I think it is very broad and very general.

The only time I can really see keeping a political or religious thread in the gen forum to create a major issue is when you have a joke or whatever that is politically related and right above or below you see something serious about the same type of topic.

At a glance people may become upset and go on a rampage before they even read.

Maybe it is not your fault they are upset about what you intended to be a joke, but, they still flame you. Now you are upset at them. It all started because joe snuffy was just assuming without researching. But, in defense and in the heat of the moment you tell him that he is just an ignorant SOB and you get banned for it.

Of course this circumstance would upset me or probably most of the other members here if it happened to us.

My biggest thing I guess is that some people just get too carried away because they are either looking for trouble/mischeif or they are really compassionate about a topic.

Would segregation be an answer?

It is not my decision to make, however, I don't see the harm in at least trying a sub-forum as Brent has stated.

No matter what, I still feel that the problem is not the location, it is the members that don't have enough self control or respect for other members.

JMHO

-lance

Sarahnn · Post by **Sarahnn** » Wed Sep 08, 2004 9:59 pm

two cents time!

What difference does it matter what the forum is titled?

When a moderator and a regular poster get in a heated exchange, it is the responsibility of the moderator to step back. He has the ban button and he has the leverage to express his frustration. In my opinion this gives him full responsibility to not be the cause of the banning.

I have moderated at two sites. I have always believed that if a person with whom I was engaged in a heated exchange had to be banned as a result, I failed as a moderator. I know better. At the same time, I have never banned just because tempers flare. I've simply stepped in and said, "back to the issue". If it was a personal argument I've told them to take it to the pm.s and the rest of the exchange would be deleted.

I like the locking the thread idea too. I've seen Ken do that in a considerate and timely manner.

JawZ · Post by **JawZ** » Wed Sep 08, 2004 10:00 pm

[quote="Ken"]I know that some of you have been lobbying (heheheheehheeheh) for a sub forum. It has been heard and discussed...

The main problem being that the sentiment will get carried back into the General Discussion Forum...
IOW If 2 people have a heated debate in the Religion & Politic Forum, they will carry their anger as they return to the Gen Discussion Forum, if you follow... I don't see it being possible to get mad in 1 forum and not continue to be mad when posting in another... So where does that get us? Exactly no where! ]

I disagree. The Gen Forum promotes the mob mentality. The people who wish to discuss and debate politics and religion will now be forced to go seek it out. You get what you ask for...if you want debate, go there. But it will force you to go there to look for it. So if trouble gets started there...well, frankly, who cares, they asked for it.

In the gen forum, people just do drive-bys, post an insult and all hell breaks loose from there.

So the right thing to do here is to create the forum. Right now, you are doing nothing. So at least do something. If it doesn't work out...at least you tried.

cableboy · Post by **cableboy** » Wed Sep 08, 2004 10:01 pm

UOD wrote:I disagree. The Gen Forum promotes the mob mentality. The people who wish to discuss and debate politics and religion will now be forced to go seek it out. You get what you ask for...if you want debate, go there. But it will force you to go there to look for it. So if trouble gets started there...well, frankly, who cares, they asked for it.

In the gen forum, people just do drive-bys, post an insult and all hell breaks loose from there.

So the right thing to do here is to create the forum. Right now, you are doing nothing. So at least do something. If it doesn't work out...at least you tried.

Have you followed the pit at genmay, or the soap box at hardocp?

YARDofSTUF · Post by **YARDofSTUF** » Wed Sep 08, 2004 10:02 pm

[quote="Ken"]I don't see it being possible to get mad in 1 forum and not continue to be mad when posting in another... So where does that get us? Exactly no where! ]

I think we get more heated at the issues thean the people. I can argue politics and getin online shouting matches with people in one thread and have no problem going over and helping them in another, or laugh at a good joke they post.

For the most part I don't think we hate each other, just get angry and frustrated fighting our side of the arguement.

lance-tek · Post by **lance-tek** » Wed Sep 08, 2004 10:02 pm

UOD wrote:
If it doesn't work out...at least you tried.

And it never hurts to try ...

-lance

Moderator · Post by **Moderator** » Wed Sep 08, 2004 10:04 pm

lance-tek wrote:And it never hurts to try ...

-lance

Sure it does, depending on what you are trying.

Brent · Post by **Brent** » Wed Sep 08, 2004 10:06 pm

cableboy wrote:I am sekrat

LOL INTERNET

haha John, you still have my OLD OLD OLD OLD OLD OLD sig

The_Lurker · Post by **The_Lurker** » Wed Sep 08, 2004 10:09 pm

see looky up there ^ some good O'l usernames coming back from the dead, we don't know who you (except for Brent...) are and you could voice opinion and such, or "Moderate" and such from behind said pseudonyme. hi2u cableboy and moderator!

WOOT!

JawZ · Post by **JawZ** » Wed Sep 08, 2004 10:13 pm

cableboy wrote:Have you followed the pit at genmay, or the soap box at hardocp?

I was a member of the soapbox. Elohiym was my handle there.

Lovely place and you HAD to go look for it. The rest of the site was tidy as all hell...the way it should be. This is a site dedicated to computers/tweaking with an emphasis on broadband. This is NOT Genmay or SA or the Soapbox. We have one little forum for people to unwind and share a giggle or two...even talk about the news of the day. Philip has allowed this to go on.....maybe for too long.

Again, if you create the forum, you'll get the mess out of here. If ill will spreads back to the gen forum, then let the mods have no mercy on their souls. Auto banned forever.

this is a high quality site with help forums which are frequented by big time insiders...including Microsoft. This site gets alot of exposure on the net and TV. When people don't know where to post or are new, they tend to gravitate to the general discussion area to put their feelers out. If they come to chaos, then they say, forget posting a question in that forum, those people are mean and nasty.....we need to put our best foot forward.

So make a new forum is what I say. Do something rather than nothing. And if the forum goes dead...so what, that's not what we are here for. We are here to help first....debate/argue/laugh/cry/etc...SECOND.

poptom · Post by **poptom** » Wed Sep 08, 2004 10:15 pm

I think it would be best to just leave things as they are.

--Tom

Brent · Post by **Brent** » Wed Sep 08, 2004 10:15 pm

could lock the gen forum

he he he he he

i'm bad

The_Lurker · Post by **The_Lurker** » Wed Sep 08, 2004 10:16 pm

Brent wrote:could lock the gen forum

he he he he he

i'm bad

LOL, hey, I remember that!

Brent · Post by **Brent** » Wed Sep 08, 2004 10:22 pm

The_Lurker wrote:LOL, hey, I remember that!

I'm the example of why a Mod/Admin should never get into heated debates in Religious/Political threads

ScottE · Post by **ScottE** » Wed Sep 08, 2004 10:23 pm

John wrote:Most people don't act here like they would in real life

I do. I do!

Sarahnn · Post by **Sarahnn** » Wed Sep 08, 2004 10:24 pm

UOD wrote:
this is a high quality site with help forums which are frequented by big time insiders...including Microsoft. This site gets alot of exposure on the net and TV. When people don't know where to post or are new, they tend to gravitate to the general discussion area to put their feelers out. If they come to chaos, then they say, forget posting a question in that forum, those people are mean and nasty.....we need to put our best foot forward.

I see your point. This really isn't an Issues board for heated discussion. General Discussion here is really like the lobby to meet people and exchange greetings. A lounge area to share some thoughts.

Wow, have I ever been out of line here. I apologize. I had this silly idea that all Discussion Boards wanted astute debators to dissect subject matter. So, I cut to the chase when discussing politics. I don't mean anything personal.

Interesting. I don't want to be accused of spamming so I'll only say this one more time, but you are all welcome to rant over at bouncersplace.com if you feel so deeply or passionately about a subject you think you might offend someone. We expect it over there.

I will come here for casual convo and really calm down on my political views here no matter what the subject.

You are all a very likable bunch.

Qwijib0 · Post by **Qwijib0** » Wed Sep 08, 2004 10:36 pm

cableboy wrote:Have you followed the pit at genmay, or the soap box at hardocp?

Yes, and it works.

If I want to see "OMG LOL My cat puked (pics!)" Then I go to the general forum. IF I want "The jews must die because they killed JFK" then I go to the pit. Separate areas, separate ideas.

My guess is what will happen is that some members post more in the "pit", and some most more in the GDB. Very rarely is stuff carried over, and if it is, it is policed via 100 "WRONG FORUM" posts-- people learn quickly.

IMO, a subforum is a fantastic idea

I echo UOD and Brent's sentiments.

And, also IMO, if only 20 members want something, but they post the most and are around the most, their comments should carry (much) more weight than those who are around less.

Roody · Post by **Roody** » Wed Sep 08, 2004 10:51 pm

YARDofSTUF wrote:I think we get more heated at the issues thean the people. I can argue politics and getin online shouting matches with people in one thread and have no problem going over and helping them in another, or laugh at a good joke they post.

For the most part I don't think we hate each other, just get angry and frustrated fighting our side of the arguement.

I agree with you YOS. Alot of us may or may not always agree with each other, but just because my views may be different then some of the others and vice versa doesnt mean a general respect isnt there.

SG Broadband Community

Sub Forum for Politics & Religion...

OK, here's my take on it all ...