Thinking of building a server

BDillon21 · Post by **BDillon21** » Tue Oct 28, 2003 3:26 pm

Hello all.........

Not sure where to put this post, so I put it here.

I want to build a file/print/mail/domain controller server for a Credit Union (I know it would be best to have these on different machines, but money is a factor here) and don't really know what to do. I have only built 1 PC before so I am not really experienced in this area.

Ideally I don't need outrageous performance but I do need some rock solid redundancy.....I was thinking raid 5 (EIDE, not SCSI) with some sort of tape backup.
I don't want aynthing built in. Graphics, RAID, NIC need to be separate.

The one thing that really confuses me is the difference between server mobo's and regular old desktop mobos. I don't need dual processors. A single P4 over 2.0 ghz will do me just fine. Will there be any benefits from running a "server" mobo or will a regular Asus P4 board do me?

What would you run in this situation? So far, what I would like to run is:

Antec Case $89.00

Tape Backup $549.00

3 of the Western Digital HDD drives for RAID 5 array $228 total

Promise RAID Controller $141.00

Anyone have any recommendations for RAM, CPU, MOBO and anything else you might want or need in a server, or maybe some changes to the hardware I listed? I wanted to stay away from SCSI mainly because I'm not familiar with it.

Ideally, I would like a slightly better tape drive so I'm open to ideas on that.

Again, this thing won't get heavy traffic......maybe 10 clients tops with light exchange server load.

Links to products are appreciated.

Thanks for any help in advance!

fastchevy · Post by **fastchevy** » Tue Oct 28, 2003 3:31 pm

Well I know you said you dont wanna go with SCSI, but for a server and especially a DC, and exchange server you need to go SCSI. IDE will be extremely slow....the access times just aren't enough to handle 10 ppl reading email and logging into the DC. They won't like you if you go with IDE

BDillon21 · Post by **BDillon21** » Tue Oct 28, 2003 3:43 pm

OK, so any ideas on a SCSI setup then? Maybe some 36 gig HDDs?

What Tape Drive, MOBO and RAID card would you use? Also, which type of RAID would be best for rock solid redundancy?

I'm sorry, I just have never had the chance to work with SCSI from scratch. I have maintained small sevrers with a SCSI array, but I have never assembled a PC or server with SCSI hardware.
My main worry is supporting it. The server will be about 60 miles from me, so if it needs worked on I need to be able to tell a somewhat computer savvy person what to do over the phone.

stevebakh · Post by **stevebakh** » Tue Oct 28, 2003 3:44 pm

What about S-ATA. Shouldn't that be able to handle the traffic? Also... I'm guessing that this machine will need to be secure? I would think of installing a unix variant like maybe Net BSD on there... very security tight

stevebakh · Post by **stevebakh** » Tue Oct 28, 2003 3:56 pm

Personally, I would recommend Gigabyte mobos using VIA chipsets. They're nice and stable. Not great for overclocking, but you don't need that, right?

Definately, go with gigabyte and VIA. Buy a decent SCSI controller card

BDillon21 · Post by **BDillon21** » Tue Oct 28, 2003 5:18 pm

Originally posted by stevebakh
Personally, I would recommend Gigabyte mobos using VIA chipsets. They're nice and stable. Not great for overclocking, but you don't need that, right?

Definately, go with gigabyte and VIA. Buy a decent SCSI controller card

Any recommendations on model #'s etc?? Honestly I shouldn't even try to build this thing if I don't know what to order, but I feel that I can do it. Half of everything I know regarding PCs, WANs, LANS, etc I learned by simply just doing it.
The guy I am doing this for has a lot of faith in me and won't be disappointed if I can't do it. I think it would be a great learning experience for me.

When it comes to SCSI, I don't know who is decent. I've always liked Western Digital EIDE hard drives, and Adaptec of Promise RAID controllers......do these guys make quality SCSI products?

Post by **YeOldeStonecat** » Tue Oct 28, 2003 5:27 pm

For a bank...I would absolutely steer far away from home grown clones...stick with Tier-1 all the way. Of all places next to say....health care...banks need solid sytems. Something fails on the server...you want immediate overnight replacement and support of components...you don't want to own the problem, and find that the "motherboard of the day" you chose isn't available anymore, or other "parts of the month club" components clone machines tend to have. They're a support nightmare you do not want to own. I'm all for building high end computers for myself, and close friends, etc..stuff I'm able to support that's non critical. But in a business environment...especially something as important as a bank...heck no, I want top notch stuff there with good support on it.

Without a doubt SCSI on any server. While IDE may approach SCSI in throughput on the desktop level...when you have a server which has to deal with concurrent hits of the HD...IDE simply crumbles to its knees...that's where SCSI truely shines. I recently had the displeasure of having to help someone running a 2K server with Exchange that ran on IDE..brand new server too...but a super budget special, IDE drives, minimal RAM, even though a P4...it crawled. And tape drives running on IDE...oh boy, stay away.

Even with only 10 clients....servers, esp with mail servers...still get heavy loads.

Difference between server grade components and desktop grades...well, server mobo's often have higher throughput designs, and higher quality, and compatibility with other "server grade" hardware. A bank, you'd want near guaranteed uptime too....think about a server with redundant power supplies.

Good backup software with the correct agents to backup Exchange, and probably whatever database they run off of. I'm sure they run some bank client database.

koldchillah · Post by **koldchillah** » Tue Oct 28, 2003 5:45 pm

For only 10 people AND being on a tight budget, I don't see how an Exchange server is the best choice.. A much, much cheaper option would be ipswitch's Imail server. Exchange would be overkill if your budget is limited...

Like YeOldeStonecat said, for a bank, I would be very weary of building something that you will have to perform emergency support for. They can order a decent Dell server and get a sweet service contract on it with immediate turnaround support. I'm not doubting your abilities by any means, I'd just hate to see you get in over your head, being that its a bank your dealing with here..

If you do decide to go ahead and build it yourself (which I'm sure you could), then I would keep it simple. None of the home user, overclocker, feature rich boards are in need here. All you need is a rock solid, plain intel board whether you go with a server class or not. I would go with perhaps at least an 875 chipset with onboard serial ATA RAID which would be a budget conscious step in the right direction away from IDE, although SCSI would be even better. Single cpu P4, with a gig of decent RAM (crucial, corsair) should be able to handle things unless you still want to stay with that exchange server, then dual proc might not be such a bad idea..
For a hard drive, Western Digital makes the serial ATA raptors which spin at 10,000 rpm's and are built to withstand a good amount of use. Otherwise if your budget allows, SCSI would really be the best way to go.. Seagate Cheetah drives all the way baby!

For graphics, go cheap. Onboard will work just fine, its not going to consume a noticeable amount of resources as you probably won't be running anything graphic intensive in the slightest bit on the server. All its there to do is provide your monitor with output. If you really don't want onboard video, then a plain $30 AGP or PCI video card will do the job.

Get a good power supply. Antec 400W or 430W should be more than enough.

As for the gigabyte board w/ VIA chipsets... not so sure. I've got a Gigabyte board w/ a VIA chipset at home (KT400 chipset) and its had its issues.. The only reason I bought it was because I needed a board right then and the local PC shop had nothing else. I've also thrown out 2 Asus A7V333's after the VIA KT333 let me down as well, (compatibility issues, IDE controller 4-in-1 driver issues, etc. etc. ). Gigabyte certainly won't be found in any server I build.
Don't get me wrong, gigabyte boards are not bad, just not what comes to mind when i think 'server'.. They have a nice dual BIOS feature which is cool, but its a feature rarely used. 1st off, you shouldn't have to flash the BIOS very often and if you do, it shouldn't fail.. I think in my 8 yrs of tearing apart PC's I've only had to flash a BIOS 4 or 5 times and of those times only once did it give me trouble at first and I got around it without the help of a dual BIOS.

I'm not an intel fanboy giving you biased info either. 2 out of my 3 gaming rigs are AMD's. All 3 rigs perform nicely, just the intel has given me less issues overall and when I put together a server, thats what I trust. (the Athlon MP server boys should be along shortly to counter me

)

Good luck with your server..

BDillon21 · Post by **BDillon21** » Tue Oct 28, 2003 6:32 pm

kold,

Could you give me some examples? I found some Cheetah drives on NewEgg but this SCSI crap confuses me.

I cannot find a SCSI RAID controller card (something here is leading me to believe that I'm retarded and you don't need one, or perhaps it's in the MOBO)

There are a million different types of SCSI too. This is the reason I wanted to stay away from it. I need to be sure the drives, MOBO, tape drive and RAID are all comaptible with each other and I just have no idea when browsing for parts.

So, if you could, would you give me some links or model numbers to parts that are compatible?

Thanks.

(I have a feeling I'm just going to end up with a Dell.)

Post by **YeOldeStonecat** » Tue Oct 28, 2003 7:25 pm

Originally posted by BDillon21

(I have a feeling I'm just going to end up with a Dell.)

Good idea. They have solved all the compatibility issues. You don't want to be the guy that has egg on their face finding out compatibility issues due to some emergency that arose from them.

I've been on emergency onsites where the server is down at a company. It went down to reasons that had nothing to do with me, but I've still felt the heat from the company bosses leaning over my shoulder wondering when I'll get them up and running again. (Meaning, I've been called onsite when some old clone server went down...and they gave up on whoever installed that server in the first place...so I'm the guy parachuting in out of the sky to save the day) Let me tell you, it's not a comfortable situation, usually happens on some critical day like end of month, or payroll day.

That's why Tier-1 servers are good for you. 1)Everything you purchase is tested, approved, and compatible. 2) You have their warranty support to get that part onsite the next day, or sooner...and often they'll install it too. Takes the pressure off of your back...because you're not getting paid for warranty part failures.

A_old · Post by **A_old** » Tue Oct 28, 2003 7:35 pm

YOSC's idea < *

That is all.

qball15j · Post by **qball15j** » Tue Oct 28, 2003 9:28 pm

I would have to agree with YOSC aswell, he knows his servers better than most of us here. Take his advice and run with it, get the Dell. Their business support is top notch and ready to serve you well if somthing were to happen. Their not like other companies that would just give you the old famious run-around.

A_old · Post by **A_old** » Tue Oct 28, 2003 11:46 pm

dell or ibm. imho.

twwabw · Post by **twwabw** » Wed Oct 29, 2003 5:31 am

I want to build a file/print/mail/domain controller server for a Credit Union

Well, this is a perfect scenario (providing you're a Microsoft fan) to use Small business Server. (Hey YOSC- can you believe I actually recommended it?

hahaha) Anyway, it is designed to run on a single server, and perform all the functions you want it to. I maintain several SBS systems, and although not my favorite way of setting up a network, they do work.

For SBS2000 and 2003, there are some special considerations for hardware, especially since everything is on this one box. And, as others have told you above- do NOT use IDE drives on a server like this. The performance will be pitiful, and they are not designed for the longevity of SCSI drives. The jury is still out on SATA= they claim the same mtbf, but only time will tell. I don't believe it.

I see your tape backup choice is a DDS-4 drive. My experience over the years with the DDS format has not been good. They are entry level drives, and tend to be less reliable than DLT. You get what you pay for. The drive you showed is a DAT40, which is 20Gb native, 40 (theoretical) compressed, with a max. transfer rate of 3mb/sec. This translates to about 10gig/hr. In reality, they run closer to their std rate of 1.5mb/sec. This will become painfully slow once the data starts to pile up (and pile up it will... don't fool yourself). I would suggest a DLT drive, like a DLT80, or even an Ultrium if you can swing the $$. A DLT VS80 will double the speed (min) and capacity of DDS4 (40gb native, 3mb/sec); and a DLT80 will quad that at 6mb/sec. Yes- all of these drives are BIG money. But, that's a fact of life, and it's their data. They also are legally bound to have secure backups in place, and it is not something you can skimp on. Expect a suitable backup solution to start at $1600, and as much as $3600 for Ultrium.

Yes- go Dell. And spend some extra $$ for the 4 hr response 7-day warranty. On an SBS server, where everything is in one basket, you need service fast! Be cautious when choosing models and accesories though. Learn and understand what you're buying, and what the differences between models are. If you're going to run Exchange server, the requirements are even more important. Setting up a vanilla raid 5 array, and dumping everything onto it will give you a sluggish P.O.S. Exchange should have the transaction logs and databases on different drives. It is a constant, non-stop process of read/writes and indexing. It goes on 24/7, and will slow everything to a crawl if you also stuff the OS; page file; and data on the same array.

Ideally, the OS should be on it's own raid1 array. Then, Exchange databases and logs should be on another raid 1 array. Then, you can put data file and everything else on a raid 5 array.

Yep- that's right... 3 separate arrays. This REALLY improves performance, and keeps them from hating you a year or two from now when things start slowing to a crawl, or you've built too small a boxe for expansion. Sound like overkill? Not really. At the very least, I would install the OS on a mirror, and then another array (1 or 5) for everything else.

So... Dell models.... Avoid the SC models. These are entry and/or low performance models, intended to small offices, or specific needs that don't require the performance. For instance, I h=just set up a 600sc as an NT 4.0 BDC, and print server. Low end, internal Raid, simple. Didn't need much. Cost? about 1600. Suitable for you? No.

The 2600 series is the next step up, and these are pretty nice boxes. They will accomplish what you want (just). I set up a couple of these this spring, and these things are sweet. (2) media bays can support a Raid 1 array for the OS (requires hot swap cage) , then the main bay holds (6) hot-swap scsi drives. You can configure the scsi backplane for (1) 6-drive array, or a split backplane for 2 arrays. Spend the $$ for redundant power supplies. They are VERY accesible to work on, and have some great features.

The 4600 series is the next step, and they are a Enterprise size behemoth. They're the next generation of the old 4300/4400's, and they are monsters! You can have your cake AND eat it too- probably not necessary for what you're building.

Remember too, if you're buying SBS2003, it comes in 2 flavors now- standard and premium. Premium includes ISA server, SQL server, and Front page. The pricing has changed a lot too- std. version is now cheap- about 500. Premium adds about 900 bucks. CAL's are 99 ea.

So.... that's my advice. Been there, done that. Dell makes great servers, but so does Compaq (HP). Compaq's tend to be more expensive, but are also great machines.

Post by **YeOldeStonecat** » Wed Oct 29, 2003 5:39 am

Originally posted by twwabw
Well, this is a perfect scenario (providing you're a Microsoft fan) to use Small business Server. (Hey YOSC- can you believe I actually recommended it? hahaha) Anyway, it is designed to run on a single server, and perform all the functions you want it to. I maintain several SBS systems, and although not my favorite way of setting up a network, they do work.

Heehee..

Working on a quote for a gas/oil company this week. They need internal e-mail, and a product that Verizon has which communicates with their fleet of trucks wirelessly...they may be getting next spring. It runs on SQL...which small business server also has. If you add up the price of SBS which includes E2K and SQL...and compare it to buying Server2K, E2K, and SQL....heck...SBS comes out sooo much cheaper. You don't have to install all the other stuff that comes with SBS...like ISA, shared fax, etc.

Post by **YeOldeStonecat** » Wed Oct 29, 2003 5:50 am

Originally posted by twwabw
The jury is still out on SATA= they claim the same mtbf, but only time will tell. I don't believe it.

On the desktop level, SATA is great...it's performance is great for desktop usage. I have WD's Raptor drive...and the components themselves are exact WD's single platter 10k rpm 36 gig SCSI drive. That's why it comes with the enterprise 5 year warranty. If you put a Raptor next to their SCSI drive....you can't tell the difference..except for the interface. I'm not sure about other brand SATA drives...if any of them come with 5 yr warranty or not.

But.........performance on the server level would be the same as any other IDE when it comes to concurrent hits on the drive. SATA does not improve that. The Raptor itself absolutely screams compared to other SATA models or any other ATA drive out there. But when it comes to server use...many requests for data coming from many different sources (typical role for a server)....IDE (including SATA) simply doesn't stand a chance compared to SCSI...which has far superior hardware control. I'd rather have older U2Wide SCSI drives in a server over ATA100 or SATA drives...even though on paper the ATA100 or SATA will blow U2W drives out of the water in raw throughput....start putting them in a server environment and see who comes out ahead.

twwabw · Post by **twwabw** » Wed Oct 29, 2003 6:03 am

Originally posted by YeOldeStonecat
Heehee.. It runs on SQL...which small business server also has. If you add up the price of SBS which includes E2K and SQL...and compare it to buying Server2K, E2K, and SQL....heck...SBS comes out sooo much cheaper. You don't have to install all the other stuff that comes with SBS...like ISA, shared fax, etc.

Oh yeah... I know.... and it now even allows a a 2nd DC (although the SBS has to hold the GC). Also, everyone should learn and be aware of the new licensing for SBS- device based vs. user based, and choose their option carefully. It's a decent feature actually, and I'm glad to see it.

SBS cals

twwabw · Post by **twwabw** » Wed Oct 29, 2003 8:10 am

BTW, just configured a 2600, including tape and all software:

- Xeon 2.4
- 1GB DDR SDRAM (I'd buy more)
- Perc4/DI embedded (for media bay OS drives)
- Perc3/DC for main array's
- 2X3 Hot-Pluggable Split Backplane
- 1X2 Media Bay drive cage
- Redundant Power Supply
- (2) 18GB 15K RPM Ultra 320 SCSI (OS)
- (5) 36GB 10K RPM Ultra 320 SCSI (Exchange raid1 and data raid5)
- PowerVault 110T,DLTVS80 Tape Backup,40/80GB
- Veritas BackupExec
- Windows 2003 Small Business Server, Standard Edition
- 3Yr Same Day 4Hr Response Parts + Onsite Labor (7 Days x 24 Hours)

$ 8,195.00

stevebakh · Post by **stevebakh** » Wed Oct 29, 2003 6:40 pm

Ouch

For that price you may as well invest in a Sun System running Sparcs.

twwabw · Post by **twwabw** » Wed Oct 29, 2003 6:43 pm

It's not really that bad, when you consider what's there. Remember- that's a $1,500 tape drive; backup software, and the OS too. Those alone add up to 2500

stevebakh · Post by **stevebakh** » Wed Oct 29, 2003 8:45 pm

Just out of interest, especially with HDs being as cheap as they are.

Couldn't you backup all the data to other HDs and store them away? [I know it sounds daft - but speaking in regards to money... or rather a lack of].

Think about how many 120GB HDs you can get for $1500.

Or is this idea not feasable at all?

twwabw · Post by **twwabw** » Wed Oct 29, 2003 9:05 pm

Well, in theory you could. I suppose you could set up some of the slide out IDE trays, and bbuy a bunch of carriers. But setting up a nightly backup rotation with HD's would get a little cumbersome. Especially since rotations should be set up to keep backups off site, somebody has to cart HD's back and forth and store them.

An adequate solution for a home user for sure though,.

BDillon21 · Post by **BDillon21** » Wed Oct 29, 2003 9:43 pm

Hard drives wouldn't be feasable. They're way too sensitive. People who take offsite backups with them leave them in cars, toss them in a purse, leave them in a lunch cooler, expose them to all kinds of nasty things.
A hard drive is way to sensitive to live in that type of environment.

Speed is not important for our backups. Backups are done at 6pm and as long as they're done by 7am the next morning, we'll be OK.
This server has nothing to do with CU critical data. That is all done on an IBM host system.