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I think this is a very interesting subject from which we can all learn much.

It is too simple to say that the vast, diverse population from all over the world came to America because of "economics". I believe that if we are to understand America, we need to know who we are.

This is a quote I found at the PBS website. I respect their views and I'm not biased just because they agree with my earlier assessment of immigration to America on a previous thread.

Persecuted for their religious beliefs, a long line of men and women have taken refuge in America ever since the Pilgrims landed at Plymouth Rock. Barred from their homelands as enemies of the state, dissidents have come to America so that their voices will not be silenced. Looking for a better life for themselves and their families, most immigrants have seen America as a promised land. Searching for safety, four million refugees have come to America since World War II. Drawn to the possibilities of a free society, creative spirits have come to America from all over the world and have flourished in its creative openness.

http://www.pbs.org/destinationamerica/usim_wy.html

Hopefully, most of you will read this and gain a much deeper understanding of what America stands for. Also, you will see that to say economics was the main motivation robs the early colonies, religious groups and later immigrants the credit they deserve for seeking a better life with economics as only one small part of far more noble reasons why we can be proud to call ourselves Americans.

There are some personal interviews of people who have come to America, you might find interesting. They appear to have much more important things on their mind than "economics".

http://www.pbs.org/destinationamerica/ps.html

Finally, I am watching the History Channels' 6-part series about immigration to America. Paraphrased, the speaker said something very interesting.

There was a point in time by around the Seventeenth Century that there were more black slaves in America than those who came of their own free will.

Comments?

Sarahnn wrote: It is too simple to say that the vast, diverse population from all over the world came to America because of "economics".

*thinks of last night and cringes*

That's really what it boils down too though, IMO.

1) Not denying that there have been waves of immigrants that emigrated for religious or political reasons.

But you put those folks on one side of a big ass scale and put all the people that came here for the one overwhelming reason of making money, any money, on the other side and that scale will tip very rapidly.

Pilgrims aside, from the European influx in the very early 1900's on to what's within our time frame, money drove it all.

2) One of my degrees is American History.

Sarahnn wrote:
Finally, I am watching the History Channels' 6-part series about immigration to America. Paraphrased, the speaker said something very interesting.

There was a point in time by around the Seventeenth Century that there were more black slaves in America than those who came of their own free will.

Comments?

Not sure what you mean.

When you say "those who came of their free will" are you/they referring to all immigrants or free blacks?

Love the History Channel

Economics would be another way of saying opportunity.

Mexico is a VERy dangerouse place to live. A few years ago, a coworker of mine lost her brother and nephew to a murder and because she didn't have the money for the bribe, the police would do NOTHING even though everyone knew who did it and why. Lets also not forget the strangle hold that the Columbian cartels have on Mexico

Despite our problems, America is still a great country to live in.

New career opportunities, to escape religious persecution, to escape criminal persecution, a new start/the cool thing to do, the gold rush, adventure.

To leave " said country" with 26 cents, and become a millionaire.

Plain and simple.

To be a guest on Jerry Springer

I remember reading an article about an man from India who came over with very little and within 3 years was a millionaire. He was quoted as saying, "If you cannot succeed financially in the United States then you are just lazy" While it sounds a bit simplistic and harsh, there is definitely some truth in the statement.

The first big wave of colonists came to the new land as part of a large scale missionary movement, to spread Christianity. Amongst these peoples were also included England's unwanted: non-conformists, criminals, political dissidents, radicals, artists, etc.

The Christianity movement is evident in the settler's first charters and documents: the Pilgrims, Separatists in Mass (read the Mayflower Compact), Quakers, etc.

England ruled this new world and sent their appointed leaders here. England's interest was driven by economics. As was the motivation for all other powers at that time, France & Spain. Govts were more interested in the economic factors rather than the religious ones.

The Pilgrims and other religious groups were not barred from their homelands as we have been led to believe. They were not boarding ships and sneaking out of harbors due east unbeknownst to the English govt. The Engish govt knew they were leaving and encouraged it.

Why? Because it was a hard sell to convince someone to leave and go east by ship to the new land, about 1 in 7 or 8 died making the trip. Those were not cruise liners as we knoiw them today.

During the first immigration wave (17th & 18th centuries) less than a million people had emmigrated here. That's less than a million people in 200 years. Procreation was high on their to-do lists!

Colonies were established. Businesses started up. They did not land here randomly. There were actual govt and businessmen plans to colonize the various Atlantic ocean front regions of the new land.

Later, slave trade increased, driven by the rum trade. Sugar from Carribean, shipped to New England & made into rum, shipped to Eu. A viscious circle of high profit rum manufacturing at very low cost to English investors.

Economics was the prime motivation. Just like today, businesses and trade were financed by individuals and groups of businessmen, investing in the future.

Individuals in Eu were sold the idea of "the promised land". The Christian church promoted this concept because govts & wealthy businessmen needed more labor for their expanding endeavors.

Religious freedom was a factor of the people who came here. Not so much because they were being persecuted in Eu but because they could come here and have more freedom to communicate & practice their beliefs.

As the new world grew and expanded, so did the same English suppressive form of govt. We had major colonies by now and the new land was THE source of profit for govts and Eu buisinessmen. Medieval philosophies were still being enforced by govts in Eu and here.

The "free thinker" had more freedom here to communicate his ideas, but was still suppressed by English rule here. This led to the revolution in 1776. But even at this time, there were few people coming to the new land. (less than a million total in 200 years) The people here were mating like rabbits!

By the time the Industrial Revolution took hold (mid 19th century), peoples from all over Eu came here for economic oportunity. They were not escaping tyranny and persecution. Eu had been ravished by wars and was economically unstable.

Airing now on the History Channel America - The Story of Us.

If I said that all immigrants came to the U.S. because of economics, I would be correct. Economic stability is a survival tool among our species. Everything we do is founded on some economic principle that sustains us.

But, economic prosperity is a failed commodity where there is no freedom. I think that the quest for freedom far outweighs economics. Freedom to believe what you want, live as you want, live where you want, pursue personal visions, protect your family, and to openly say what you believe politically, and religiously and simply survive without interference from a tyrannical or oppressive agent.

There are economic opportunities everywhere on the globe. But, the freedom to own it, is practically non existant. Further, we have fought wars and given our lives and the lives of our children and brothers based on our total contempt for being ruled over.

Sacrifice wasn't a new concept based on economics as America grew, it was our legacy founded on why we came and still come to America.

Humboldt wrote:Not sure what you mean.

When you say "those who came of their free will" are you/they referring to all immigrants or free blacks?

Love the History Channel

I thought he was saying that the millions of slaves forced to come to America outnumbered the population of those people who chose to come to America. It sounds like you are taking a double-take on that like I did. It's hard to believe.

But, my point was that there were millions of forced immigrants we must take into consideration when we talk about why this land was populated.

There was a point in time by around the Seventeenth Century that there were more black slaves in America than those who came of their own free will.

At this point in time there were only a couple hundred thousand white settlers that survived the trip to this country, if that. They multiplied. Between the mid 1600's and mid 1700's there were about 3 million slaves here & the Carribean islands.

The concept of freedom as a motivation for populating this land was not pushed, was uncommon and did not take hold until around the time of the American Revolution. And even at that time, a great portion of residents here wanted nothing to do with revolution. Revolution had to be "sold" to the majority via the current media, social organizations and political groups. Fortunately, it caught on.

Truth be told, the economically motivated WASPs founded (Colonial period), funded and began this new land we live in, and to a marked degree they still control it today.

TonyT wrote:
And even at that time, a great portion of residents here wanted nothing to do with revolution. Revolution had to be "sold" to the majority via the current media, social organizations and political groups. Fortunately, it caught on.

You are right about the revolution catching on, but the vision of freedom after the Revolutionary war became the path through which immigrants could pursue their dreams and they knew it. But, actually, you said as much.

Truth be told, the economically motivated WASPs founded (Colonial period), funded and began this new land we live in, and to a marked degree they still control it today.

Who else was going to populate and invest in the 'British' colonies but white Europeans from Britain? There was no conspiracy in that. You will find the same things happening in Taiwan and Hong Kong with the Asians. What is your point?

To establish a slave colony for the crown

Who else was going to populate and invest in the 'British' colonies but white Europeans from Britain? There was no conspiracy in that. You will find the same things happening in Taiwan and Hong Kong with the Asians. What is your point?

I did not even hint at conspiracy. The point being that the WASP control was not hindered by the American Revolution and any subsequent revolts or quests for freedom from English authoritarian tax systems and idealologies.

The investors financed the Brittish war effort and lost, but to them, all they lost was a few dollars and future continued high profits, but they still controlled the trades and made profits, but not as high as previous to the war.

America had won its independence, but the Brittish, French, Spanish and other EU investors could care less, they still got fat and controlled this new American govt.

Peoples in EU did not come here completely on their own. They were dependant upon shipping companies for transportation, they were dependant upon family here already for housing, etc. America had to be sold to them via advertisements, word of mouth and other means.

The point being that freedom has always been a "button" in all societies on Earth. But economic opportunity is what drove the immigration impetus, and it still does.

TonyT wrote:I did not even hint at conspiracy. The point being that the WASP control was not hindered by the American Revolution and any subsequent revolts or quests for freedom from English authoritarian tax systems and idealologies.

The investors financed the Brittish war effort and lost, but to them, all they lost was a few dollars and future continued high profits, but they still controlled the trades and made profits, but not as high as previous to the war.

America had won its independence, but the Brittish, French, Spanish and other EU investors could care less, they still got fat and controlled this new American govt.

Peoples in EU did not come here completely on their own. They were dependant upon shipping companies for transportation, they were dependant upon family here already for housing, etc. America had to be sold to them via advertisements, word of mouth and other means.

The point being that freedom has always been a "button" in all societies on Earth. But economic opportunity is what drove the immigration impetus, and it still does.

I will agree with you that the majority of immigrants have come to America to make a better life for themselves and their families.

However, you are being pragmatic and I am being idealistic. I don't think one tips the scales over the other in the human experience.

One more thing. You said that freedom has always been a button in all societies on earth. There are no societies, nor have there been societies like the one we have under our Constitution. The American people rule themselves with intent by their own permission.

War, Famine, Locusts?, take your pick. The one that boggles my mind is all the native abbo's from N/A emmigrating to Great Britain? Sure India was a colony of the King, but Marco Polo took the wrong turn, to namate Indians, like Cleveland...hehe

WASP control? Too late, I heard a lot more than english at the local Shop Rite on Saturday.

I usually work on Saturday...forgive my CAPS LOCKS, Je suis Francais, Et, On et toujour francais ici....





do you... have a problem with.... samedi?

He's a friend...I'll call him, tell him to stay off your....back!

I'm in forever

Mad_Haggis wrote:I usually work on Saturday...forgive my CAPS LOCKS, Je suis Francais, Et, On et toujour francais ici....

Êtes-vous la France ?

OSULLY wrote:WASP control? Too late, I heard a lot more than english at the local Shop Rite on Saturday.

Spanish for example?

They originally came here for the freedom, now they come for the benefits and of course to commit crimes.

One more thing. You said that freedom has always been a button in all societies on earth. There are no societies, nor have there been societies like the one we have under our Constitution. The American people rule themselves with intent by their own permission.

Yes, there's never been a society like our current one. But there have been societies that used sane govts, such as the age of Greece. Even the Roman empire was not too bad.

In all civilizations to date, including our current one, peoples and lands have been conquered and exploited for their resources and cheap or free labor. The conquered have sought freedom from captivity, slavery, economic rape, tyranny, cultural suppression, etc. Wars have begun for different causes, but the end result was always economic dominance.

It doesn't really matter that govts have been different than our current govt here in America. In an impoverished backward nation, when conquered by tyrannists and evil, the people there will seek freedom "from", knowing that the previous suppressed life condition was better than the current suppressed life condition.

TonyT wrote:Yes, there's never been a society like our current one. But there have been societies that used sane govts, such as the age of Greece. Even the Roman empire was not too bad.

In all civilizations to date, including our current one, peoples and lands have been conquered and exploited for their resources and cheap or free labor. The conquered have sought freedom from captivity, slavery, economic rape, tyranny, cultural suppression, etc. Wars have begun for different causes, but the end result was always economic dominance.

It doesn't really matter that govts have been different than our current govt here in America. In an impoverished backward nation, when conquered by tyrannists and evil, the people there will seek freedom "from", knowing that the previous suppressed life condition was better than the current suppressed life condition.

I agree. You've made some good points and I never meant to give the impression that I believed that immigration was the sole result of persecution and tyranny. (I could have also mentioned oppression.) I have a little bit of an education myself. I let myself get sidetracked.

What I was saying, regarding illegal immigration on our southern borders was that illegal aliens were not fleeing from persecution and tyranny (if you can look past a corrupt government), therefore, while they are welcome legally, I can't muster up much sympathy for their plight that excuses the violation of our borders because of the drug trafficking and various other crimes. But, (back to this thread) I think the long and short of it is that of course immigrants came here for economic reasons but most of them came with a dream.

TonyT wrote: It doesn't really matter that govts have been different than our current govt here in America. In an impoverished backward nation, when conquered by tyrannists and evil, the people there will seek freedom "from", knowing that the previous suppressed life condition was better than the current suppressed life condition.

Add to this, not only were they running from tyranny and evil, but simply running from other reasons. How many people here have an Irish background in their family tree? //raises hand.
The Irish were absolutely hated when they were arriving here in waves roughly starting in the early 1800's..and with the waves on incoming rising heavily in the mid 1800's and into the late part of that century. Within a couple of decades during the peak of their immigration, roughly 1/4 of the population came here. They came here running from extreme poverty and starvation. They settled in cities...basically the ports they arrived in, because they didn't have the money and resources to travel to other areas of the US. Gee...similar to other nationalities as they immigrate. They were so frowned upon, they were barely allowed only the lowliest of labor jobs...such as coal mining, and canal building, mills.

One can study other trends in waves of immigration from other countries....Germany, Portugal, Italy. These people were frowned up, looked down up, treated as low lifes...by the existings WASPs here.

The history of the US as far as bloodlines is often forgotten. The early colonists were resistant to other nationalities arriving here. Yet...those first colonists themselves were really illegal aliens...to the natives here. They forced the natives into their religion, forced them into their schools, etc.

What I was saying, regarding illegal immigration on our southern borders was that illegal aliens were not fleeing from persecution and tyranny (if you can look past a corrupt government), therefore, while they are welcome legally, I can't muster up much sympathy for their plight that excuses the violation of our borders because of the drug trafficking and various other crimes. But, (back to this thread) I think the long and short of it is that of course immigrants came here for economic reasons but most of them came with a dream.

Agreed!
The illegals come here with a dream as well. Some dream of opportunity and a better life, some dream of handouts, some dream of easy tax free monies, some dream of education, some dream of fame and fortune and some dream of nothing but fruit and vegetables. Freud would have a field day. (sick double pun)

I am Italian. When the Italians came here in the 19th century and at the turn of the 20th century they were referred to as Spics. (no spicca english) At some point, the Latinos inherited that derogatory name and Italians became Wops and Guinies, probably after the Italians had a solid stronghold here.

Why did Sarah come to Speedguide? A place for technology enthusiasts.

Joe wrote:Why did Sarah come to Speedguide? A place for technology enthusiasts.

There are lots of folks who come here for the General Forum alone, with an occasional tech question thrown in.

TonyT wrote:Agreed!
The illegals come here with a dream as well. Some dream of opportunity and a better life, some dream of handouts, some dream of easy tax free monies, some dream of education, some dream of fame and fortune and some dream of nothing but fruit and vegetables. Freud would have a field day. (sick double pun)

I am Italian. When the Italians came here in the 19th century and at the turn of the 20th century they were referred to as Spics. (no spicca english) At some point, the Latinos inherited that derogatory name and Italians became Wops and Guinies, probably after the Italians had a solid stronghold here.

Both sides of my family immigrated here less than two and three generations ago. They were WASPs, and Hunkies. One had to marry another and I was born in under eight months. I was raised with the prejudices that the Welsh had against the Irish, and the Ukranians had against the Russians. I talked to and was raised by some very proud people. I am proud of both sides of my extended family including the Jewish blood that is in me.

Now, having said that about myself in response to your comment, we need to protect our southern borders. Mexico protects its borders. Canada protects its borders.

We gave special dispensation to Cuban refugees because they were fleeing from a dictatorship and asked nothing of them but to get here safely. We are not a callous Nation. But we have rules that we as citizens have to obey everyday without running and hiding. I want everyone who enters this country to abide by the same laws I do.

I say that with compassion to each individual who is seeking a way to take advantage of America without citizenship. Do not sneak under our noses with impugnity and expect us to feel sorry for you. If you sneak in, we don't know who you are or what you're up to and there will be opposition to America losing sovereignty over her own borders.

I feel strongly about this and if I came across an illegal alien who asked for help, I would do what I could to establish them legally abiding by the laws of our Country.

I know I'm long-winded this time, thanks for listening though.

nm, another time.

Joe wrote:Why did Sarah come to Speedguide? A place for technology enthusiasts.

Are you calling me an immigrant?

Mad_Haggis wrote:War, Famine, Locusts?, take your pick. The one that boggles my mind is all the native abbo's from N/A emmigrating to Great Britain? Sure India was a colony of the King, but Marco Polo took the wrong turn, to namate Indians, like Cleveland...hehe

Thanks for your input, good to see you.

Miggs wrote:They originally came here for the freedom, now they come for the benefits and of course to commit crimes.

U are now officially ignored.

Miggs wrote:They originally came here for the freedom, now they come for the benefits and of course to commit crimes.

From 1620 to date....

Leatherneck wrote:I remember reading an article about an man from India who came over with very little and within 3 years was a millionaire. He was quoted as saying, "If you cannot succeed financially in the United States then you are just lazy" While it sounds a bit simplistic and harsh, there is definitely some truth in the statement.

Personal effort has value, but it in itself is no guaranty. For every "thumbs under the lapels, Acre of Diamonds" success tale, there are dozens of broken people for whom their wits and sweat were for naught.

yet.... we must try.

terrancelam wrote:U are now officially ignored.

Huh ? What ? Didn't hear you, I'm too busy reading the Constitution, remember that thing that those guys wrote ?