There goes the Mid East Neighborhood!

David · Post by **David** » Thu Mar 02, 2006 4:16 pm

Gixxer wrote:that does not mean that there was not voter fraud and that also does not mean he is even close to the best person for the job.

Sounds like US circa 2000.

thepieman · Post by **thepieman** » Thu Mar 02, 2006 4:17 pm

Gixxer wrote:The U.N. watchdog group, the International Atomic Energy Agency, wants Tehran to take action to prove its nuclear energy program is intended for peaceful purposes. Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has ordered the Islamic state to end its voluntary cooperation with the IAEA.

and this spells cover up for what is really going on

If this is a cover-up...what would you consider Israels Nuclear program all these years then?

http://www.vanunu.freeserve.co.uk/
BTW
That man has been in jail for over 18 years for bringing the news to the world about the cover up that really exists. Complete with false walls,underground facilities, and accidental nuclear fuel releases into the ground.Where do they put all the spent fuel? Where do they do their nuclear testing? Who monitors their equipment or maintains it? What are their qualifications? No one knows!
Thats a cover up dude.

Like I have been saying...there is crap from Both sides and its high time it was removed all together. Its our lives at stake here too.

Gixxer · Post by **Gixxer** » Thu Mar 02, 2006 5:16 pm

thepieman wrote:

If this is a cover-up...what would you consider Israels Nuclear program all these years then?

http://www.vanunu.freeserve.co.uk/
BTW
That man has been in jail for over 18 years for bringing the news to the world about the cover up that really exists. Complete with false walls,underground facilities, and accidental nuclear fuel releases into the ground.Where do they put all the spent fuel? Where do they do their nuclear testing? Who monitors their equipment or maintains it? What are their qualifications? No one knows!
Thats a cover up dude.

Like I have been saying...there is crap from Both sides and its high time it was removed all together. Its our lives at stake here too.

a coverup, but they are not threatening anybody...first

thepieman · Post by **thepieman** » Thu Mar 02, 2006 5:44 pm

Gixxer wrote:a coverup, but they are not threatening anybody...first

Gixxer there have been many many veiled threats made by Israel and its political leaders in the past. If you don't consider "Arabs may have the oil but Israel has the matches" a veiled threat I dunno what to tell you.

"Masada was not an example to follow--it hurt the Romans not a whit, but Sampson in Gaza? With an H-bomb? What would serve the Jew-hating world better in repayment for thousands of years of massacres but a Nuclear Winter. Or invite all those tut-tutting European statesmen and peace activists to join us in the ovens?" David Perlmutter in Los Angeles Times

Even from 1998

Defense analyst Zeev Schiff opined in independent Haaretz (2/4): "Too
many senior Israeli officials have taken to issuing threatening
statements vis-a-vis Iraq and Iran.... Off-the-cuff Israeli nuclear
threats have become a problem, even before the onset of the Iraqi
crisis.... Washington may decide it wants to distance itself from
Israel in order to avoid being accused of having conspired with us on
an action we planned exclusively by ourselves."

Shimon Peres]

As early as 1956 Francis Perrin, head of the French A-bomb project wrote "We thought the Israeli Bomb was aimed at the Americans, not to launch it at the Americans, but to say, 'If you don't want to help us in a critical situation we will require you to help us; otherwise we will use our nuclear bombs.'"

During the 1973 war, Israel used nuclear blackmail to force Kissinger and Nixon to airlift massive amounts of military hardware to Israel. The Israeli Ambassador, Simha Dinitz, is quoted as saying, at the time, "If a massive airlift to Israel does not start immediately, then I will know that the U.S. is reneging on its promises and...we will have to draw very serious conclusions..." Just one example of this strategy was spelled out in 1987 by Amos Rubin, economic adviser to Prime Minister Yitzhak Shamir, who said "If left to its own Israel will have no choice but to fall back on a riskier defense which will endanger itself and the world at large... To enable Israel to abstain from dependence on nuclear arms calls for $2 to 3 billion per year in U.S. aid." ....

downhill · Post by **downhill** » Thu Mar 02, 2006 6:44 pm

Gixxer wrote:that does not mean that there was not voter fraud and that also does not mean he is even close to the best person for the job.

I'm loving this....

Gixxer · Post by **Gixxer** » Thu Mar 02, 2006 8:19 pm

downhill wrote:I'm loving this....

i know, i know ... GB comes to mind and although he has bad intentions, i don't think they are anytihng close to the bad intentions of irans president ... i think our president thinks monetarily...irans thinks death and destruction

thepieman · Post by **thepieman** » Fri Mar 03, 2006 2:01 am

NEW DELHI, March 2 — President Bush and Prime Minister Manmohan Singh of India announced here today that they had reached agreement on putting into effect what Mr. Bush called a "historic" nuclear pact that would help India satisfy its enormous civilian energy needs while allowing it to continue to develop nuclear weapons.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/02/inter ... r=homepage

knightmare · Post by **knightmare** » Fri Mar 03, 2006 2:12 am

thepieman wrote:NEW DELHI, March 2 — President Bush and Prime Minister Manmohan Singh of India announced here today that they had reached agreement on putting into effect what Mr. Bush called a "historic" nuclear pact that would help India satisfy its enormous civilian energy needs while allowing it to continue to develop nuclear weapons.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/02/inter ... r=homepage

India and China are enemies, so we build up India as a countermeasure to aggression in that area. A little too late however...

thepieman · Post by **thepieman** » Fri Mar 03, 2006 2:16 am

knightmare wrote:India and China are enemies, so we build up India as a countermeasure to aggression in that area. A little too late however...

So that should give China or N. Korea the green light to start threatening to bomb their nuclear plants soon I guess.

Dissenting on Atomic Deal With India

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By STEVEN R. WEISMAN
Published: March 3, 2006
WASHINGTON, March 2 — In concluding its nuclear deal with India, the Bush administration faces significant opposition in Congress and tough questions from its allies on whether the arrangement could set a precedent encouraging the spread of nuclear weapons to Iran and other potential foes of the United States.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/03/03/polit ... r=homepage

I am beginning to think either this man is the anti-christ looking to sink us all into a war or he is one of those Christians thinking he can bring about armegeddon to force the 2nd coming of Christ.
Pie

David · Post by **David** » Fri Mar 03, 2006 3:57 am

thepieman wrote:Gixxer there have been many many veiled threats made by Israel and its political leaders in the past. If you don't consider "Arabs may have the oil but Israel has the matches" a veiled threat I dunno what to tell you.

Even from 1998

For the sake of equality, why not post the venomous rantings spouted by Arabic journals. You would not have to dig nearly as hard to find them.

thepieman · Post by **thepieman** » Fri Mar 03, 2006 4:10 am

Hell_Yes wrote:For the sake of equality, why not post the venomous rantings spouted by Arabic journals. You would not have to dig nearly as hard to find them.

Because Im not denying that they have made threats. I never have. It seems that a few people here keep bringing up the idea that Israel has not made any threats and that they are totally innocent. I didn't have to dig at all David..just do a google for Israel Nuclear.. tons of stuff there. Results: 50,100,000 for Israel nuclear. There was is no digging necessary and I tried to stick with a lot of newspaper articles, antiwar/anti-nuclear sites or even Israeli newspaper articles.

ghettoside · Post by **ghettoside** » Fri Mar 03, 2006 4:10 am

Hell_Yes wrote:For the sake of equality, why not post the venomous rantings spouted by Arabic journals. You would not have to dig nearly as hard to find them.

David · Post by **David** » Fri Mar 03, 2006 5:10 am

thepieman wrote:Because Im not denying that they have made threats. I never have. It seems that a few people here keep bringing up the idea that Israel has not made any threats and that they are totally innocent. I didn't have to dig at all David..just do a google for Israel Nuclear.. tons of stuff there. Results: 50,100,000 for Israel nuclear. There was is no digging necessary and I tried to stick with a lot of newspaper articles, antiwar/anti-nuclear sites or even Israeli newspaper articles.

I will refer back to see who thought Israel was totally innocent.

OK...... so Israel has made threats and evidence has it that Israel may have had nuclear capability before India or Pakistan. Any google search with nuclear and a country with said power will light up the sky.

Hey for giggles, let us google Hamas.... {from wiki...}

wiki wrote:The Covenant of Hamas

The Covenant (or Charter) of Hamas was published in 1988. It outlines the organization's position on various issues, including social and economic development and ideological influences, education, as well as its position regarding Israel. Amongst many other things, it reiterates the group's rejection of the coexistence principle of the peace process in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict:

Preface: "Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it." (A quote by Imam Hassan al-Banna)

Article 6: "The Islamic Resistance Movement is a distinguished Palestinian movement, whose allegiance is to Allah, and whose way of life is Islam. It strives to raise the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine, for under the wing of Islam followers of all religions can coexist in security and safety where their lives, possessions and rights are concerned..."

Article 11: "The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up."

Article 13: "There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors. The Palestinian people know better than to consent to having their future, rights and fate toyed with."

Article 28: "The Zionist invasion is a vicious invasion ... It relies greatly in its infiltration and espionage operations on the secret organizations it gave rise to, such as the Freemasons, The Rotary and Lions clubs, and other sabotage groups. All these organizations, whether secret or open, work in the interest of Zionism and according to its instructions ..."

Article 31: "The Islamic Resistance Movement is a humanistic movement. It takes care of human rights and is guided by Islamic tolerance when dealing with the followers of other religions. It does not antagonize anyone of them except if it is antagonized by it or stands in its way to hamper its moves and waste its efforts. Under the wing of Islam, it is possible for the followers of the three religions - Islam, Christianity and Judaism - to coexist in peace and quiet with each other."

Article 32: "After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying."

You have to love #31. Note how well Judaism flourishes in Islamic countries. You can count the number of Iranian Jews in Iran on a severed stump.... This should not be any surprise... Those that were not slaughtered moved to NY.

#32, quoting "Protocol".... the fine piece of famous plagiarism of Machiavelli satire.

http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm

Read article #8 and #13. Cannot say I would feel cozy as a Palestinian Christian.

Let us sample an article from a google of Hezbollah Iran

http://www.meib.org/articles/0202_l1.htm

Origins of Hezbollah noted. Makes you wonder how many troopes Israel dispatched to..... well any country bordering Iran to fire missiles into their sovereign land.

Israel innocent, no. But they are not the wholly guilty party.

Enough of my thoroughly lame and sleep deprived post...

David · Post by **David** » Fri Mar 03, 2006 5:14 am

I would like to stress, the proper path is peace.

thepieman · Post by **thepieman** » Fri Mar 03, 2006 5:57 am

Hell_Yes wrote:I will refer back to see who thought Israel was totally innocent.

OK...... so Israel has made threats and evidence has it that Israel may have had nuclear capability before India or Pakistan. Any google search with nuclear and a country with said power will light up the sky.

Hey for giggles, let us google Hamas.... {from wiki...}

You have to love #31. Note how well Judaism flourishes in Islamic countries. You can count the number of Iranian Jews in Iran on a severed stump.... This should not be any surprise... Those that were not slaughtered moved to NY.

#32, quoting "Protocol".... the fine piece of famous plagiarism of Machiavelli satire.

http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm

Read article #8 and #13. Cannot say I would feel cozy as a Palestinian Christian.

Let us sample an article from a google of Hezbollah Iran

http://www.meib.org/articles/0202_l1.htm

Origins of Hezbollah noted. Makes you wonder how many troopes Israel dispatched to..... well any country bordering Iran to fire missiles into their sovereign land.

Israel innocent, no. But they are not the wholly guilty party.

Enough of my thoroughly lame and sleep deprived post...

David
I appreciate the links. I am going to say something and more then likely as true as it may be, you may not like it, but in my opinion, had 2 States been drawn up in 1949, one being The State of Israel and the other of being The State Of Palestine...we may not have seen things get out of hand like this.
I am sure being as intelligent as you are, you know the story behind how a group of Israelis forced the British to give up their hold over the, then country of Palestine, where both groups were being cordoned off, the European Jews and the Palestinians, the European Jews already weary from the Nazis forcing them to live in ghettos, found themselves in yet another ghetto. Hypothetically...what if Great Britain had never given autonomy to the European Jews from then till now? Would it have stopped with just the King David hotel? Would it have escalated? Would Jews be sacrificing themselves in order to help their families? Would they still be killing Brits to get their message across? Jews have swore their vengence on the Nazi war criminals and still to this day will hunt them down and bring them to justice at whatever the cost. So, I believe that had the Brits still held the country...they would.

I agree with you 100% peace is the only path.

I have grown up all of my life only knowing freedom, and I could not ever imagine myself ever having to have lived without it or what I would be like if I ever had it taken away. I know I would never be the same again.

Pie

David · Post by **David** » Fri Mar 03, 2006 6:39 am

thepieman wrote:David
I appreciate the links. I am going to say something and more then likely as true as it may be, you may not like it, but in my opinion, had 2 States been drawn up in 1949, one being The State of Israel and the other of being The State Of Palestine...we may not have seen things get out of hand like this.
I am sure being as intelligent as you are, you know the story behind how a group of Israelis forced the British to give up their hold over the, then country of Palestine, where both groups were being cordoned off, the European Jews and the Palestinians, the European Jews already weary from the Nazis forcing them to live in ghettos, found themselves in yet another ghetto. Hypothetically...what if Great Britain had never given autonomy to the European Jews from then till now? Would it have stopped with just the King David hotel? Would it have escalated? Would Jews be sacrificing themselves in order to help their families? Would they still be killing Brits to get their message across? Jews have swore their vengence on the Nazi war criminals and still to this day will hunt them down and bring them to justice at whatever the cost. So, I believe that had the Brits still held the country...they would.

I agree with you 100% peace is the only path.

I have grown up all of my life only knowing freedom, and I could not ever imagine myself ever having to have lived without it or what I would be like if I ever had it taken away. I know I would never be the same again.

Pie

Pierre,
You remain as a gem of reason and diplomacy

Historically, you are close to the mark. Had Brittain held up to their agreement with the Balfour declaration, thousands of Jewish lives would have been spared. At the time, the UK placed very strict limits on who and how many could immigrate to the holy land. So many who escaped Europe, found themselves turned back within eyesight of then Palestine. In addition, they kept with the policy of setting locals against each other (not that the native Arabs had any love for the Jews.). It was classic colonialism and upheaval.

Sadly, one thing the Iranian leader said is quite true. Israel exists now because of the antisemitism of pre-1948 Europe. For all of this, Israel is to some Jews what any European fiefdom or Middle Eastern emirate, a homeland. A sympathetic Zionist eye would appreciate the need of the Palestinians. Regardless, I do not sincerely believe that the Arab residents would have accepted any form of a Jewish homeland (google purposed sizes of Israel)

BTW, how familiar are you with Persian History during WW2 through to the Islamic revolution?

It remains however, not every problem in the Middle East related to this particular conflict.

peace to you and yours,
david

Gixxer · Post by **Gixxer** » Fri Mar 03, 2006 12:20 pm

Is it safe to come out of my fox hole yet?

thepieman · Post by **thepieman** » Fri Mar 03, 2006 12:21 pm

Hell_Yes wrote:
BTW, how familiar are you with Persian History during WW2 through to the Islamic revolution?

It remains however, not every problem in the Middle East related to this particular conflict.

peace to you and yours,
david

Not very familiar with Persian history really. They don't really consider themselves as arabs nor are they classified as arabs I think.Farsi is totally different.

Pie

David · Post by **David** » Fri Mar 03, 2006 12:34 pm

thepieman wrote:Not very familiar with Persian history really. They don't really consider themselves as arabs nor are they classified as arabs I think.Farsi is totally different.

Pie

Their language is Farsi, and you are correct in that they are not Arab.

thepieman · Post by **thepieman** » Fri Mar 03, 2006 12:36 pm

Hell_Yes wrote:Their language is Farsi, and you are correct in that they are not Arab.

Yeah thats what I had meant. I could not understand farsi at all. Even the writing appears more Indian then it does arabic.

Pie