dual p3 1gigs, what next?

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chesty
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dual p3 1gigs, what next?

Post by chesty »

I have a dual 1 gig p3 with 1gig mem on the way. I have currently with it a 40gigide harddrive, and 16xdvd, 12xcdrw,w/decod(geforce/g450)wsx2

The graphics card is an nvidia geforce2 gts, 32mb ddr

I need to make it faster, especially oriented for 3dgraphics, number crunching, video/still photo editing and running as a server

I am going to be using Photoshop 6 for the photo editing, DV500 pro for the video editing, and 3Dstudiomax version 4 for the 3D graphics. I will also be using Adobe illustrator and maybe some of their other products as well. I will be using FrontPage to do most of the web pages construction(save for the graphics and such). And running a bulletin board for Scale modelers, e-commerce and such. Okay, long laundry list and I most likely will need a true server in the very near future. But for now this is what I got.

I will also be doing engineering work using Patran/Nastran (fem) and AutoCad/Cadkey.



What type of suggetions/recomendations would you have.
:rolleyes:
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Thor Walez
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Post by Thor Walez »

Buying an Elsa Gloria III ???
Perhaps a Dual/Quad Intel Foster (new Xeon)???

Only an idia!

-Thor
1st rig:
Abit NF7-S v2.0(!) nforce2 | AMD XP2500+ Barton @2.4Ghz 12*200mhz | TYAN Tachyon Radeon9500pro oc´ed | 2*256MB DDR400 cl2.5 TwinMos -winbond- @ DC DDR400 3-2-2-2.0 | 2*120 GB Seagate Barracuda V *8MB Cache* S-ATA in RAID0 *woooo*| Pioneer DVD-RW A-05 | LG 48x24x48x16 CD-RW-DVD Combo | win2k pro SP4 |

2nd Rig:
Abit KD7 KT400 | XP2400+ @XP2700+ (333) | Geforce4 128MB TI4200 oc´ed | 512MB PC3000 Corsair XMS CL2 | 60 GB Seagate Barracuda IV | Seagate ST340823A 40GB 5.4krpm | Pioneer DVD-106S | det.52.16 | win2kpro SP4 |
3rd Rig
*** SOLD *** --> preparing to go AMD 64bit in far future after paying off my RX8

http://arc.aquamark3.com/arc/arc_view.php?run=340755603 NEW!!!!
http://service.futuremark.com/compare?2k1=7717862
http://service.futuremark.com/compare?2k3=2262168 NEW!!!!


Be evil and fold some unholy proteins... crunch a unit!
How you can help us to fold!

Folding buddy with SeedOfChaos, as The Fallen Angels. 100% unholy AMD Power.
chesty
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Post by chesty »

You'll have to excuse me I am just a lonely Aerospace Engineer.

Gloria III, Intel Foster?
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Thor Walez
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Post by Thor Walez »

Originally posted by chesty
You'll have to excuse me I am just a lonely Aerospace Engineer.

Gloria III, Intel Foster?
Gloria III

new XEON

-Thor
1st rig:
Abit NF7-S v2.0(!) nforce2 | AMD XP2500+ Barton @2.4Ghz 12*200mhz | TYAN Tachyon Radeon9500pro oc´ed | 2*256MB DDR400 cl2.5 TwinMos -winbond- @ DC DDR400 3-2-2-2.0 | 2*120 GB Seagate Barracuda V *8MB Cache* S-ATA in RAID0 *woooo*| Pioneer DVD-RW A-05 | LG 48x24x48x16 CD-RW-DVD Combo | win2k pro SP4 |

2nd Rig:
Abit KD7 KT400 | XP2400+ @XP2700+ (333) | Geforce4 128MB TI4200 oc´ed | 512MB PC3000 Corsair XMS CL2 | 60 GB Seagate Barracuda IV | Seagate ST340823A 40GB 5.4krpm | Pioneer DVD-106S | det.52.16 | win2kpro SP4 |
3rd Rig
*** SOLD *** --> preparing to go AMD 64bit in far future after paying off my RX8

http://arc.aquamark3.com/arc/arc_view.php?run=340755603 NEW!!!!
http://service.futuremark.com/compare?2k1=7717862
http://service.futuremark.com/compare?2k3=2262168 NEW!!!!


Be evil and fold some unholy proteins... crunch a unit!
How you can help us to fold!

Folding buddy with SeedOfChaos, as The Fallen Angels. 100% unholy AMD Power.
chesty
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Post by chesty »

I like the Gloria description. I will wait and see just how successful I am at the new shop
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smaier69
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Post by smaier69 »

if you are not a gamer, and money is not really an issue (as it looks by your current config), then i would highly suggest taking a look at some of the 3DLabs graphix solutions. ideally the Oxygen. some have up to 128MB of memory (like the $2000 GVX420).

they are geared towards CAD workstations and the like. take a look at http://www.3dlabs.com/product/card/oxygen_overview.htm .
"I think this day will go down as a black day in the history of mankind"

-Leo Szilard - December 2, 1942, following the first successful nuclear fission test.
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Post by Psalmist »

In order to further push your speed, you may wish to upgrade the HD situation. Digital video work requires very fast hard drives. IDE RAID will certainly help, though backups are a bit more critical do to their delicacy. SCSI 160 controller with a 15K rpm drive would also be an asset.
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Post by chesty »

I had looked at the oxygen cards and they are apparently very good. yes, they are pricey. But if the ends justify's the means then it is worth it.

I did look at 15k hard drives and 4.5 ms access times, could only find the 18 gig (or was it 8gig) seagates. I would like to add 3 more and replace the main one with a faster, larger capacity one. Currently I have a 40gig.

I am heavy into graphics and engineering. And even the machines at work suck! Of course they go for the budget pc.
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Post by Psalmist »

You will only need the fast drives for work, capture editing and effects. You can then push finished projects of to the slower IDE drives.
I have a similar system.

Of course in a few monthes, AMD dual processor systems will have 2 O/C 2.1GHz processors and DDR RAM.
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Post by smaier69 »

yeah, i agree with the notion of the end justifying the means (a large sum of money on a CAD workstation graphics solution).

the reason i said "if you are not a gamer" is because they are not a good DirectX/D3D card. but their OpenGL is top-tier. we use SurfCam at work (thouhg i am not an engineer).

and chesty.... you said you work in aerospace. ever heard of Green, Tweed & Co.? we make polymer seals for aircraft hydraulic systems (90% of all military aircraft in the world use our seals). mostly Teflon/PTFE inpregnated with many different compounds like silica (glass), carbon, graphite, etc.,.
"I think this day will go down as a black day in the history of mankind"

-Leo Szilard - December 2, 1942, following the first successful nuclear fission test.
chesty
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Post by chesty »

I can't say that I have. I have worked on the military side at Boeing Wichita, and Commercial at both wichita and Everett, WA.

I am currently at MDHelicopters in Mesa. I do structural analysis so I don't get much into the vendor side. They just tell me what they want to do and I say yeah or neah.

Question, for the gamer side, is it possible to run dual video cards? One for games and the other for 3D work? If so would you need two monitors? Seems like you would.

Damn, dual 2gigs. That sucks!(not really)

How does, 3 18.1 gig 15k rpm with 4.5ms access times and one 10K at 4.5ms running at 80-120gig storage sound? I would keep the os on the large one with all finished files and such and use the others for the work and scratch disks. Trying to optimize for when I start getting into this quite heavily.
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Post by Psalmist »

You should have even more fun striping two of the 15K drives. 36Gig and effectively 30K rpm speed throughput.

More speed than you may need. At that point, the processors are the bottleneck
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Post by YARDofSTUF »

got 2 grand for a vid card the oxogen cards will rock ur world!
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Post by smaier69 »

yes, you can run 2 video adapters (and you would also need 2 monitors for that). it wouldn't work that way though. one of your videocards would have to be the primary, and that would subsequestially be the one thats initialized for OpenGL or DirectX. the second vidvard would basically just serve the purpose of running a second monitor rather than the other way around.

it would be a tradeoff. though i think your system is powerful enough to handle the load of what your vidcard could not handle (in the case of a specialized card like the Oxygen, i mean). one 1GHz CPU (most games dont support SMP so the other proc would not be utilized. depending on your OS you could load balance your system so the second proc is handling all OS and app loads and the first is dedicated to the gaming processes, but you would still be looking at a 1 CPU machine when it comes to gaming) can pull a lot of weight.

its a tough call. i suppose you would have to evaluate what you want to get against your priorities.

and as far as the hard drives..... i would actually recommend the Quantum Atlas 10K II over the 15,000RPM Barracuda. though the Seagate drives have a faster spindle speed, the 10,000RPM 10K II's have better/faster electronics. though i have not shopped for a SCSI drive for some time, the reviews i read about a month and a half ago rated the Quantum Atlas 10K II over the 15,000 Seagate Barracuda performance-wise.

things change fairly quickly in this industry, so it may be different now. i would look into it more if the consideration is serious.
"I think this day will go down as a black day in the history of mankind"

-Leo Szilard - December 2, 1942, following the first successful nuclear fission test.
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Post by chesty »

Yes, the consideration is way serious. I hate nothing more than waiting to access a file. Not a big deal when your a casual user, but for what I do and want to do, it can be a real pain. I figured as much on the vidcards. I will probably just run one. I doubt that I personally would notice that much difference. Then again, I might. But the 3D and such are more important.

I got some researching to do on the vidcards and the harddrives. What about upping the cache to 512 or a meg? I hear that it is a trade off as well more cache, less speed.

I am running MS2kpro. I am going looking for some books on tweaking the os to max it out as you have stated for the best performance.
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Post by smaier69 »

well, if i were wearing my "consultant" hat, here's what i would suggest......

dont worry about the gaming aspect at this point. your business mode is much more important. though it may not be considered a "gaming" rig, you would still be able to play whatever you want, albeit at a minor sacrifice of "visual goodies"...... but still very much playable.

whan it comes to the "cache", which i presume you mean system RAM, the more the better. casual users would not see much of improvement over 256MB or even 512MB, but you might. at this point (without actually seeing how the system behaves) i couldn't really say. 512MB is a lot. my initial guess is that would be fine, but then again the performance nut aspect of my personality says "more is better. i think the quality of the RAM you would be using would be more important...... see http://www.mushkin.com for some high-line SDRAM solutions.

and when it comes to the drives...... we are really splitting hairs at this point. all the numbers and specs can be extermely daunting and confusing from a comparative point of view. the difference between the real-world performace between the two would be in the scope of tenths of a second wait-time..... if even that. all i can say is..... i have sat in front of a CAD workstation including an Adaptec U160 host and a Quantum Atlas 10K II that could push 58MBps sustained. thats VERY impressive. as i said though, there may be some faster solutions out there, but we are looking at the law of diminishing returns here. bleeding-edge technology is such no matter how we look at it right now.

and if your gaming needs are not being fulfilled, you could build a very spiffy gaming/personal rig for about the cost of the SCSI bus and drives you mentioned...... or maybe about $1300. then you could use a switchbox or KVM switch to share your monitor/keyboard/mouse of your primary system with it.

just my $.02 worth :)
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Post by chesty »

I have 1gig of mem already. I was referring to the cache which is 256k full speed. Gaming is secondary as the performance of my machine on the business end is definately more important. I had heard that upping the cache would be better but that it would slow down. As for the drives, yeah it would be splitting hairs, but as you say, more is better and more horsepower, faster and so forth can make the difference.

I have used pc's of all kinds, most being junk, and RS6000, SG's, Sparc's, etc. I can definitely notice the differences between a machine low on memory and with slow devices vs better ones. I am investing a lot into my company and I will do the same for the machine that will help make it.
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Post by smaier69 »

well, i tell you what........

at this point the lines are becoming very thin, and to be honest...... i need to talk to a freind of mine before i could recommend anything further. he has worked for a few engineering companies on the IT level and may be able to offer a more conciise and astute opinion. my firsthand experience has beeen close to exhausted in terms of applicable wisdom.

it may take a couple days, but i will see what his consensus is.
"I think this day will go down as a black day in the history of mankind"

-Leo Szilard - December 2, 1942, following the first successful nuclear fission test.
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Post by Psalmist »

Digital video requires fast drives.
In seeing 512M SDRAM sticks going for $72
You could almost do the work all in RAM!!
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Post by chesty »

I could go all the way to 2gig on board.!
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Post by smaier69 »

hmm.... with 2GB of RAM i would think a RAMdrive could be set to house/run AutoCAD (or whatever) and store/run current files being worked on before the finished product is pushed into magnetic storage.

now that would be a fast drive. would make even a U160/Ultra3 SCSI RAID 0/0+1 array look like snails in a convalescent home after medication time.
"I think this day will go down as a black day in the history of mankind"

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Post by smaier69 »

BTW, i know how big AutoCAD is, but...... whats the average data filesize we are looking at here?
"I think this day will go down as a black day in the history of mankind"

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Post by chesty »

I have seen several hundred megabyte file sizes, depending on the complexity of the model. Solid modeling, surfacing and detail. I would say though that the average size would be around 50mb or less and trying to keep the file sizes to even less to allow managability, zipping for electronic transfer and such. Let's face it, even the big companies don't invest all that much in computers for the engineer and we usually get the leftovers. Also, manufacturers cannot always handle heavy files.

As for the web pages they by virtue need to be kept light, but working on them could be quite fun using a 1.5Gig ram drive. I think I may just go out and up to two gig next weekend.

Yes, it would be fast. Near speed of light fast.
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Post by Psalmist »

I would also suggest splitting the tasks of Internet and CAD/DV between two machines
I will have 1.5 Gig of RAM by weeks end... Yes I am planning a large RAM drive. For digitizing projects, this system will fly.
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Post by chesty »

Eventually I will split them. I have an 800mghz machine which I will upgrade to 512mb ram. I could use this for server stuff, but I think it would be to slow even if I upgraded the hard drives.

I will initially try it out and see how it goes (using the dual p3 for both activities), if I start to get good activity, then I will find a host until I can get a dedicated server.

Yes, your machine should fly quite nicely. I am going to be doing some experimenting, such as compiling fortran programs and running nastran, and using autocad and studio3Dmax to see how much faster I will be with ram drive vs very fast hard drives.
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Post by smaier69 »

just for a frame of reference, the fastest hard drives on the market today can sustain reads of ~55MBps - 60MBps (that being the aforementioned Quantum Atlas) in single drive config (with the necessary Ultra3/U160 adapter). with enough of these drives in a U160 RAID array, you could probably reach 80% - 90% of the max throughput of your adapter (160MBps...... and thats if you have a 64bit PCI slot. unless you have a very high-end server-set motherboard, which the vast majority of consumers do not, you would therefore limit you to ~1/2 of the max potential throughput of the adapter - due to it being frorced to run in 32bit mode. this is a very common oversight of normal consumers). bear in mind you would also need a 64bit capable OS, but it looks like you will have that covered.

so lets just say you have in your hands a board that has the required 64bit PCI slot and you slap in the desired U160 RAID adapter and 4 drives in RAID 0 (we wont go into mirroring, though i would highly suggest it since you will have critical data stored on them...... if you are not hip to what RAID is or how it works, here's a good explaination...... http://www.acnc.com/raid.html ). now lets say you are getting the optimal throughput your disk i/o system is capable of..... something like 150MBps - 155MBps.

thats really moving. and due to SCSIs typical ability/feature of multithreading, the disks and controller will be able to process multiple read/write requests at the same time (something IDE drives cannot).... this would translate into disk i/o that would be mind-numbing..... in a good way, of course.

now lets look at SDRAM's capability. with a high-quality chipset and high-quality RAM modules running at 133MHZ, you could probably reach upwards of 450MBps - 500MBps. half a GBps is not too shabby. comparatively speaking its smokin' (compared to mechanical/magnetic media such as a hard drive). if you have two separate memory channels (one for each processor), you could effectively double that given the right scenario. i have my RAM running at 143MHz, and get about 595MBps to 630MBps depending on exactly what operation type we are referring to.

i will submit that a RAMdrive will probably not be able to reach the real-world performance dividends mentioned above (due to process overhead and such), but there would most likely be a night and day difference between it and a single hard drive or RAID array.
"I think this day will go down as a black day in the history of mankind"

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chesty
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Post by chesty »

Thanks, Iwill be definitely looking into that. I just tried it out last night. Wow, it is about 400 times faster than my single 800 machine. (so it seems) Unbelievable is all I can say.

Yes, I would like to do mirroring, but this and other stuff is still fairly new to me.

What would be some good reference material/books?
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idig4au

Post by idig4au »

I would have to agree with adding either a dual IDE RAID configuration or an Ultra 160 SCSI drive if you can afford it. I believe drive performance is one of the most often overlooked performance enhancers.

I do a lot of heavy duty number crunching and have seen first hand the difference a fast drive subsystem can make even on a PII 450 where the system bus is likely the bottleneck. We do finite element interpolations on a matrix consisting of approximately 16 Million elements. Using a typical 7200 RPM drive it used to take 27 hours. We added an Adaptec 160 SCSI controller and a 18Gb Seagate drive and reduced the computation time to approximately 9 hours. Well worth the investment!
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Post by smaier69 »

well, a really good place to start for definitions/exploainations of tech/computer-oriented word/topics would be Webopedia (a very handy bookmark). they typically have links to further information on said subject.

here's a good preliminary explaination of RAID......... http://webopedia.internet.com/TERM/R/RAID.html . it goes into the basic RAID levels and gives some good links as well.
the link i posted in my last post (i realized later) goes into extreme detail about RAID levels up to 53 (which most people have no use for). i will post it again for whatever reason (cant think of a good one right now)....... http://www.acnc.com/raid.html . this link will be good for when one has a good understanding of what RAID is and how it works.

also, i have some personal experience with RAID (have IDE RAID 0 in my workstation) and SCSI (have a Ultra-2 Wide SCSI channel in my server. it not as new as i'd like, but its sitting on a high-end consumer-grade motherboardboard..... so only 32bit PCI bus. i wouldn't get any more speed if i bought a U160/Ultra3 host anyways). i (as well as the rest of the speedguide community) will gladly offer whatever wisdom we have.

oh, and since you have your board/preliminary system......... check the manual to see if you have 32bit or 64bit PCI slots. you could probably save a few bucks by going with a Ultra2 Wide SCSI adapter or RAID adapter since you couldn't inprove throughput with a U160 unit. the drives should be U160, since they would be the newest and fastest, but not the PCI SCSI adapter.

if you do have at least 1 64bit PCI slot, then the sky's the limit (or at least the full potential of a U160 bus). i will be a very jealous man if you have a 64bit slot and the money to fill 'er up :)
"I think this day will go down as a black day in the history of mankind"

-Leo Szilard - December 2, 1942, following the first successful nuclear fission test.
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Post by chesty »

I have a 64 bit slot. The rest are 32. If it is what I am looking at it is even labeled for the drive card. It is empty right now. I am sure it is since it is almost twice as long as the other slots. I am checking to comfirm my hopes.
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chesty
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Post by chesty »

the slot is a pci/raid expansion slot and is definitely much bigger than the 32-bit slots. So, it must be a 64bit
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Post by smaier69 »

woohoo!! :)

just out of curiosity, do you happen to know what make/model motherboard you have? if you dont its no big deal, but i am just curious to see. from the sound of it you are "in" like...... ummmm... whatever that guy's name is. :p

go chesty! go chesty! its yer birthday! its yer birthday!

|ahem|...... (*loosens collar and tried to regain composure*). sorry about that..... i am just glad to be home after a very long day of dealing with very tight tolerances and a very tough material (coke flour filled PTFE).

anyways, it looks as if things will be soon coming together. now you got me all excited. i love it when a plan comes together.
"I think this day will go down as a black day in the history of mankind"

-Leo Szilard - December 2, 1942, following the first successful nuclear fission test.
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Post by chesty »

The mother board is an intel board with dell installed hardware such as built in scsi, cards. It is a 133mhz bus.
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