http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 01100.html
http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/
This is where the international stage is going to be set folks. If we do nothing, then it shows that we have no respect for international law that WE ENDORSED!!!! President Reagan signed the treaty which bans torture and then Congress ratified it in 1994.
The world is watching and expecting us to act and to bring President Bush to face justice.
If we don't do anything, how can we expect Iran to comply with international law and nuclear non-proliferation treaties? What can we demand of anyone?
The Truth Commission debate is hurting America
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SeedOfChaos
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Ronald, Americans need to hear what the rest of the world thinks about our inaction on this issue. How does it taint our relation in the international community? Do you have some Euro news links which talk about this subject that you can share?SeedOfChaos wrote:[pretending=speak for "the world"]Expecting? No. Hoping? Yes.[/pretending]
Americans desperately need a wakeup call.
I think there are a good many Americans that pretty much know that our good wilk world wide has gone down the toilets.
I'm not sure what the percentage of them want a commission tough. It's like Iran Contra.. It's flat out embarrassing.
It's convincing that 28 percent that's going to be tough. You know that crowd....*we should have just nuked Iraq. Turned the whole place to sand.* crowd...
I'm not sure what the percentage of them want a commission tough. It's like Iran Contra.. It's flat out embarrassing.
It's convincing that 28 percent that's going to be tough. You know that crowd....*we should have just nuked Iraq. Turned the whole place to sand.* crowd...
DH,
American corporations inability to support their foreign subsidiaries will have/has an even larger impact. The US and Europe (throw Russia in as well) are still imperialists in the eyes of the rest of the world. Their leadership will act with impunity, answering only to the most powerful.
American corporations inability to support their foreign subsidiaries will have/has an even larger impact. The US and Europe (throw Russia in as well) are still imperialists in the eyes of the rest of the world. Their leadership will act with impunity, answering only to the most powerful.
Hell_Yes
Luck is where preparation meets opportunity - Seneca
"Anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'" - Isaac Asimov
It is my ambition to say in ten sentences what others say in a whole book. - Friedrich Nietzsche
There was an excellent show on this on NPR today.
Seems the biggest obstacle to truth, is that with all the letters from the white house lawyers at the time, indicating that what was going on was legal, it kinda throws a protective blanket over anyone involved. Therefore most won't testify.
What seems to be happening in the justice department now, that Cheney is out of the way, is an investigation into the actions of those lawyers.
If indeed by giving the President god powers, then they most certainly were giving bad advice and there is talk about going after them. Hopefully so.
They probably won't be prosecuted but they most certainly are looking at disbarring or even loosing their jobs since (unbelievably) some of them are professors of law at some of our leading universities.
Seems the biggest obstacle to truth, is that with all the letters from the white house lawyers at the time, indicating that what was going on was legal, it kinda throws a protective blanket over anyone involved. Therefore most won't testify.
What seems to be happening in the justice department now, that Cheney is out of the way, is an investigation into the actions of those lawyers.
If indeed by giving the President god powers, then they most certainly were giving bad advice and there is talk about going after them. Hopefully so.
They probably won't be prosecuted but they most certainly are looking at disbarring or even loosing their jobs since (unbelievably) some of them are professors of law at some of our leading universities.
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SeedOfChaos
- Posts: 8651
- Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2000 12:00 am
- Location: Comfortably Numb
Evan, Bush is not much of a talking point anymore over here, other than maybe the occasional historical scapegoat (mostly justified too, IMO).
Nobody over here expects you guys to prosecute him, and most have shrugged it off as given because nothing we do can influence you guys enough to do it or not. The Americans as a people have always had a strong will of their own, and much of the time in its existence, that has been a good point, too.
Would we love to see it happen? Hell yes!!! Look - EU nations and their populations in general are pro the international courts - for this exact reason. We've been painfully aware of the need for them a bit longer than you guys... we've seen the need - often with our own eyes (not me, thankfully) in front of our home's. I've gotten to know enough victims of politicians and industrials and bankers, and so have many others.
But seeing how there have always been opportunists of war that survived regime changes - a soft one as the normal democratic election in the US at that too - the common way is that they continue to prosper.
Look at the Flick family. It's all right there in this example, but it's far from the only one. It's been the same in/after basically all other European conflicts, too.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flick_family, especially http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Karl_Flick (please take a quick glance now to understand the rest of my post)
The German version of the page is more extensive, but the English one sums it up enough. THESE are the people owning and driving the few [insert random rediculously expensive luxury car] in this world. In kickass company of all the other *******s of which I know that own one. And then sue us over nothing. ****, I could tell a long story about this one but am bound by a NDA, of course.
That alone tells me enough not to expect anything. You won't hear cries from our politicians either. Their campaigns were paid for by the Flicks of this world. In this relative view and my opinion, IF you guys can pull it off and send Bush where he really belongs for having dragged your country into the gutter and trampling on the constitution, you would gain more than the respect he lost in your name.
But please be aware: It's not like the whole world lost all respect for you, as Americans, as the "new" US. A considerable number of the rest of the world can differentiate between the Bush administration and the rest of the country and history. We know corrupt politicians when we see them - we're used to them just like you are. Just most of ours and yours were and are much better at sugarcoating their force-fed **** than Bush was.
And actually, when I say Bush, I mostly mean the largest part of this top administration officials as well.
And as far as the world goes... we could demand it... but what do we have to back it up? Economic sanctions? WAR? I mean come on... none of that would do any good. No, this one is up to you guys.
Either you prosecute him yourself, join the nations accepting the international court for war crimes and let that handle the issue, or you just let it slide. But the choice and responsibility is up to the US citizens - the same people responsible for him being in the office in the first place.
Where are your protesters marching on Washington, demanding prosecution? With that kind of public pressure, how could Obama deny? IMO, that is what would need to happen. It would also perfectly fall into place with Obama's current strategy of being the people's president. You could help him carrying the burden in that sense.
Nobody over here expects you guys to prosecute him, and most have shrugged it off as given because nothing we do can influence you guys enough to do it or not. The Americans as a people have always had a strong will of their own, and much of the time in its existence, that has been a good point, too.
Would we love to see it happen? Hell yes!!! Look - EU nations and their populations in general are pro the international courts - for this exact reason. We've been painfully aware of the need for them a bit longer than you guys... we've seen the need - often with our own eyes (not me, thankfully) in front of our home's. I've gotten to know enough victims of politicians and industrials and bankers, and so have many others.
But seeing how there have always been opportunists of war that survived regime changes - a soft one as the normal democratic election in the US at that too - the common way is that they continue to prosper.
Look at the Flick family. It's all right there in this example, but it's far from the only one. It's been the same in/after basically all other European conflicts, too.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flick_family, especially http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Karl_Flick (please take a quick glance now to understand the rest of my post)
The German version of the page is more extensive, but the English one sums it up enough. THESE are the people owning and driving the few [insert random rediculously expensive luxury car] in this world. In kickass company of all the other *******s of which I know that own one. And then sue us over nothing. ****, I could tell a long story about this one but am bound by a NDA, of course.
That alone tells me enough not to expect anything. You won't hear cries from our politicians either. Their campaigns were paid for by the Flicks of this world. In this relative view and my opinion, IF you guys can pull it off and send Bush where he really belongs for having dragged your country into the gutter and trampling on the constitution, you would gain more than the respect he lost in your name.
But please be aware: It's not like the whole world lost all respect for you, as Americans, as the "new" US. A considerable number of the rest of the world can differentiate between the Bush administration and the rest of the country and history. We know corrupt politicians when we see them - we're used to them just like you are. Just most of ours and yours were and are much better at sugarcoating their force-fed **** than Bush was.
And actually, when I say Bush, I mostly mean the largest part of this top administration officials as well.
And as far as the world goes... we could demand it... but what do we have to back it up? Economic sanctions? WAR? I mean come on... none of that would do any good. No, this one is up to you guys.
Either you prosecute him yourself, join the nations accepting the international court for war crimes and let that handle the issue, or you just let it slide. But the choice and responsibility is up to the US citizens - the same people responsible for him being in the office in the first place.
Where are your protesters marching on Washington, demanding prosecution? With that kind of public pressure, how could Obama deny? IMO, that is what would need to happen. It would also perfectly fall into place with Obama's current strategy of being the people's president. You could help him carrying the burden in that sense.
ex-WoW-addict
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SeedOfChaos
- Posts: 8651
- Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2000 12:00 am
- Location: Comfortably Numb
Actually, let me sum up the Flick family a bit more extensively...
Friedrich Flick was born in 1883 in western central Germany. He completed school and university (business), and between 1906 and 1913 worked as accountant for a steel plant.
In 1913, he then became CEO of a different steel plant, of which he aquired more and more shares over the year. Partially, this was financed by privately buying shares in other steel companies, which his company would then aquire at a higher price.
Of course, during WWI, he made a f'ing fortune owning a steel company. Then he took up large credits to buy up more companies in the steel and coal sector, with the debt disappearing very quickly during the hyperinflation of the late 1920's and early 30's in Germany. He sold part of his industrial empire to the German state in 1932 at triple market price to balance his financial accounts.
He funded the Nazi's rise to power and became a member of the party. On February 20th 1933, he met Hitler together with other industrial leaders. Still in 1933, he diversified his empire vertically, and aquired arms producers. In March 1934, his empire already had contracts for planes, bombs, grenades and ammunition. By 1937, he had turned his empire into the Friedrich Flick KG ("KG" means that it is a private company, instead of the previous "AG", a company trade on stock markets). That meant that he would keep all the profit generated in the following years. He also developed a very close relationship with the Nazi leadership, including Göring. The company lawyer drafter the legislation that would disposses Jews on Dezember 3rd 1938. As a result, the Friedrick Flick KG would buy the arms companies formerly owned by Jews from the government at a fraction of their market price.
These companies continued to produce arms throughout the second world war, much utilizing and profiting from concentration camp slave labour - 80-100k slave workers through the years. All the profits went into Friedrich Flick's private pockets. Also, he "aquired" arms companies in the easter territories that Germany occupied during WWII, furthering his industrial empire. Right before the end of the war, he destroyed most obvious evidence against him, and transferred 90% of his empire to his sons.
And here's the kicker. At the Nuremberg Trials, he was prosecuted as war criminal and sentenced to seven years in prison. He never admitted any guilt. He was disposessed of about 3/4 of his empire, but next to nothing of that went to the previous owners. The few Jewish owners that he did have to compensate, he only had to compensate what the companies were worth at the time. So basically the person who formerly owned the company by himself now got 1% of the shares. He did not pay a single cent to slave workers and their relatives. Not until he died in 1972, still denying any guilt.
His son that inherited most of his empire, Friedrich Karl Flick, and led it since 1957, went on to become one of the most important industrialists in Germany post WWII, buying his way into the following German governments. You remember Helmut Kohl, right? Bought by Flick for private gain like his predecessors, for example to pay no taxes on the sale of two billion Deutsche Mark worth of stock (probably worth the same amount in dollars or more today), while everyone else had to pay taxes on such transactions. Big affair, minor political heads roll. Nothing happens much. No charges are brought against Flick. The 5th richest German retires to Austria in 1994, and becomes the richest Austrian. Died in 2006. Curiously, his remains were stolen in late 2008, probably with ransom demands towards his widow.
Friedrich Flick was born in 1883 in western central Germany. He completed school and university (business), and between 1906 and 1913 worked as accountant for a steel plant.
In 1913, he then became CEO of a different steel plant, of which he aquired more and more shares over the year. Partially, this was financed by privately buying shares in other steel companies, which his company would then aquire at a higher price.
Of course, during WWI, he made a f'ing fortune owning a steel company. Then he took up large credits to buy up more companies in the steel and coal sector, with the debt disappearing very quickly during the hyperinflation of the late 1920's and early 30's in Germany. He sold part of his industrial empire to the German state in 1932 at triple market price to balance his financial accounts.
He funded the Nazi's rise to power and became a member of the party. On February 20th 1933, he met Hitler together with other industrial leaders. Still in 1933, he diversified his empire vertically, and aquired arms producers. In March 1934, his empire already had contracts for planes, bombs, grenades and ammunition. By 1937, he had turned his empire into the Friedrich Flick KG ("KG" means that it is a private company, instead of the previous "AG", a company trade on stock markets). That meant that he would keep all the profit generated in the following years. He also developed a very close relationship with the Nazi leadership, including Göring. The company lawyer drafter the legislation that would disposses Jews on Dezember 3rd 1938. As a result, the Friedrick Flick KG would buy the arms companies formerly owned by Jews from the government at a fraction of their market price.
These companies continued to produce arms throughout the second world war, much utilizing and profiting from concentration camp slave labour - 80-100k slave workers through the years. All the profits went into Friedrich Flick's private pockets. Also, he "aquired" arms companies in the easter territories that Germany occupied during WWII, furthering his industrial empire. Right before the end of the war, he destroyed most obvious evidence against him, and transferred 90% of his empire to his sons.
And here's the kicker. At the Nuremberg Trials, he was prosecuted as war criminal and sentenced to seven years in prison. He never admitted any guilt. He was disposessed of about 3/4 of his empire, but next to nothing of that went to the previous owners. The few Jewish owners that he did have to compensate, he only had to compensate what the companies were worth at the time. So basically the person who formerly owned the company by himself now got 1% of the shares. He did not pay a single cent to slave workers and their relatives. Not until he died in 1972, still denying any guilt.
His son that inherited most of his empire, Friedrich Karl Flick, and led it since 1957, went on to become one of the most important industrialists in Germany post WWII, buying his way into the following German governments. You remember Helmut Kohl, right? Bought by Flick for private gain like his predecessors, for example to pay no taxes on the sale of two billion Deutsche Mark worth of stock (probably worth the same amount in dollars or more today), while everyone else had to pay taxes on such transactions. Big affair, minor political heads roll. Nothing happens much. No charges are brought against Flick. The 5th richest German retires to Austria in 1994, and becomes the richest Austrian. Died in 2006. Curiously, his remains were stolen in late 2008, probably with ransom demands towards his widow.
ex-WoW-addict
Or probably because the casket was gold lined or has some precious metals/jewelry decos. These types are know to do stupid things like "be burried w/ a gold crusafix" so as to fool St. Peter just in case there is a heaven!Curiously, his remains were stolen in late 2008, probably with ransom demands towards his widow.
No one has any right to force data on you
and command you to believe it or else.
If it is not true for you, it isn't true.
LRH
and command you to believe it or else.
If it is not true for you, it isn't true.
LRH
There are none and won't be any protesters.Where are your protesters marching on Washington, demanding prosecution? With that kind of public pressure, how could Obama deny? IMO, that is what would need to happen. It would also perfectly fall into place with Obama's current strategy of being the people's president. You could help him carrying the burden in that sense.
Obama was elected by people who were tired of the existing scene, temporarily came out of their apathetic state of existence to seek change and hope, but don't have the "umpgh" to go out & protest or for that matter don't have the courage to fight back for what's just. "Let's just move on" is the attitude" that assists history to repeat itself.
No one has any right to force data on you
and command you to believe it or else.
If it is not true for you, it isn't true.
LRH
and command you to believe it or else.
If it is not true for you, it isn't true.
LRH