'Pulled over in Kansas? Get ready to show your license, registration Â— and....

Brk · Post by **Brk** » Wed Mar 22, 2006 3:16 pm

...fingerprints.

The first phase was funded with a $752,000 homeland security grant. Shocker.

thepieman · Post by **thepieman** » Wed Mar 22, 2006 3:50 pm

Now THAT is messed up. WTF is going on?!

Jon · Post by **Jon** » Wed Mar 22, 2006 4:36 pm

From the article.

"Prints scanned in the field will not be stored."

so what exactly is the problem with this?

Prey521 · Post by **Prey521** » Wed Mar 22, 2006 4:39 pm

Jon wrote:From the article.

"Prints scanned in the field will not be stored."

so what exactly is the problem with this?

Because people will think it's BS and that they will keep your prints on file anyways.

Brk · Post by **Brk** » Wed Mar 22, 2006 4:48 pm

Jon wrote:From the article.

"Prints scanned in the field will not be stored."

so what exactly is the problem with this?

They're stored SOMEWHERE, now aren't they?

Jon · Post by **Jon** » Wed Mar 22, 2006 4:49 pm

Prey521 wrote:Because people will think it's BS and that they will keep your prints on file anyways.

ahh .. ok, I understand. We now get excited over a perceived problem.

Jon · Post by **Jon** » Wed Mar 22, 2006 4:50 pm

Burke wrote:They're stored SOMEWHERE, now aren't they?

from the article, only if you have a record.

Brk · Post by **Brk** » Wed Mar 22, 2006 5:00 pm

Jon wrote:from the article, only if you have a record.

Do you think it will stop there? Most states now require a fingerprint to get a new or renew your driver's license. So those are just put on your license and that's it? Please.

Jon · Post by **Jon** » Wed Mar 22, 2006 5:21 pm

Burke wrote:Most states now require a fingerprint to get a new or renew your driver's license.

Link please.

In my opinion, even if what you state above is true, I have yet to see a problem with this. If the state you reside in requires you to provide a finger print to obtain/renew a license. You print is already on record. So what is the problem with them making sure you are who you say you are?

You have been pulled over for some reason/suspicion. Why not have the ability to verify who it is you have just pulled over.

Izzo · Post by **Izzo** » Wed Mar 22, 2006 5:24 pm

Jon wrote:Link please.

In my opinion, even if what you state above is true, I have yet to see a problem with this. If the state you reside in requires you to provide a finger print to obtain/renew a license. You print is already on record. So what is the problem with them making sure you are who you say you are?

You have been pulled over for some reason/suspicion. Why not have the ability to verify who it is you have just pulled over.

it leaves too much room for abuse..

thepieman · Post by **thepieman** » Wed Mar 22, 2006 5:25 pm

Until some President comes along and confiscates the data under the pretenses of "National Security". If it falls under the patriot act they can do and collect whatever they want with it if it is being collected no matter what the article or the local bureaucrats say. Best thing is to not have it at all.
You can say they arent collecting the data now, but it just makes it that much easier to do later.

Jon · Post by **Jon** » Wed Mar 22, 2006 5:27 pm

Izzo wrote:it leaves too much room for abuse..

examples please.

Brk · Post by **Brk** » Wed Mar 22, 2006 5:27 pm

Jon wrote:Link please.

Go down to your DMV and ask.

Jon wrote:You have been pulled over for some reason/suspicion. Why not have the ability to verify who it is you have just pulled over.

That's what your LICENSE is for.

Jon wrote:examples please.

You're another one who can't see beyond the here and now. I'll bet someone in your family is/was a police officer or somehow involved with law enforcement...that, or you're one of the "I have nothing to fear since I've done nothing wrong" crowd.

Jon · Post by **Jon** » Wed Mar 22, 2006 5:29 pm

thepieman wrote:Until some President comes along and confiscates the data under the pretenses of "National Security". If it falls under the patriot act they can do and collect whatever they want with it if it is being collected no matter what the article or the local bureaucrats say. Best thing is to not have it at all.
You can say they arent collecting the data now, but it just makes it that much easier to do later.

so what would be the problem with the feds having access to these print databases? They have your name already and can find out just about anything they want about you now with or with out you print.

Jon · Post by **Jon** » Wed Mar 22, 2006 5:32 pm

Burke wrote:Go down to your DMV and ask.

That's what your LICENSE is for.

You're another one who can't see beyond the here and now. I'll bet someone in your family is/was a police officer or somehow involved with law enforcement...that, or you're one of the "I have nothing to fear since I've done nothing wrong" crowd.

you know what, don't be an a$$. You made a statement, I asked for a link to verify your statement and you choose to make some generalization.

Mark · Post by **Mark** » Wed Mar 22, 2006 5:38 pm

so me getting fingerprinted to do construction work on new county schools is bad news as well ??

i think maybe some people are just a little too paranoid, unless they have something to hide maybe.

Keg Party · Post by **Keg Party** » Wed Mar 22, 2006 5:39 pm

Jon wrote:you know what, don't be an a$$. You made a statement, I asked for a link to verify your statement and you choose to make some generalization.

You're the one that wants proof, you find a link.
My home state requires a print on the DL.

Brk · Post by **Brk** » Wed Mar 22, 2006 5:42 pm

Mark wrote:i think maybe some people are just a little too paranoid, unless they have something to hide maybe.

THAT is the attitude that allows police states to just slide in...

"Durrr, I ain't doin' nuthin' wrong!"

What is legal today can be ruled illegal tomorrow. You're a good citizen on Monday, and on Friday, you're the enemy.

thepieman · Post by **thepieman** » Wed Mar 22, 2006 5:57 pm

Why is it that fingerprints were only for either applying for a government job, or being arrested and I'm not sure if you need one for a passport but that was a long time ago so i don't remember...I'd like to see someone who may have touched something at a crime scene at some time or another start crying when you become implicated just because your prints were on something you touched months ago and they just happen to have your prints in a database and you become implicated or brought in for questioning. Its just a bad idea.

Why not just go for RFID tags or UPC tattoos as well. They can just scan you and since you have nothing to hide it shouldn't be a problem as well.

knightmare · Post by **knightmare** » Wed Mar 22, 2006 6:02 pm

All U.S. citizens to receive National ID card by 2008

The Real ID Act, passed by Congress and signed by President Bush on May 11, 2005, mandates that all U.S. citizens will receive a National ID card by May of 2008.

Without this National ID, you won't...

* Drive your car
* Board a plane, train, or bus
* Enter any federal building
* Open a bank account
* Hold a job

If you can’t hold a job or have a bank account, how much buying and selling will you be able to do?

One must ask, is the NATIONAL ID a card?

Izzo · Post by **Izzo** » Wed Mar 22, 2006 6:06 pm

Jon wrote:examples please.

as Burke and Pie pointed out .....oh! ..there was that whole Presidential eavesdropping/wiretapping thing also ...

BroncoSport · Post by **BroncoSport** » Wed Mar 22, 2006 7:12 pm

knightmare wrote:All U.S. citizens to receive National ID card by 2008

The Real ID Act, passed by Congress and signed by President Bush on May 11, 2005, mandates that all U.S. citizens will receive a National ID card by May of 2008.

Without this National ID, you won't...

* Drive your car
* Board a plane, train, or bus
* Enter any federal building
* Open a bank account
* Hold a job

If you can’t hold a job or have a bank account, how much buying and selling will you be able to do?

One must ask, is the NATIONAL ID a card?

Would you kindly supply a link for this. And what your source for the above information is. I have looked for conformation and CANNOT confirm that this has made it out of commitee in the Senate.

Thanks

goobee · Post by **goobee** » Wed Mar 22, 2006 7:15 pm

Joseph McCarthy all over again. Still hunting down the "bad" apples in America. Brother.

While were at it, let's start accumulating "Hoover" files too.

BroncoSport · Post by **BroncoSport** » Wed Mar 22, 2006 7:21 pm

Izzo wrote:as Burke and Pie pointed out .....oh! ..there was that whole Presidential eavesdropping/wiretapping thing also ...

oh you left out the facts that the current President authorized and the NSA used this for communications between KNOWN terrorist suspects contacting people within the USA and vice versa ONLY. Not one single instance of DOMESTIC eavestropping /wiretrapping from one citizen to another citizen, has been officially noted or accused. Also it is important to know that all of the previous Presidents, going back to at least Jimmy Carter, used that exact same executive privilege as W, only difference is that they WERE used domestically. Remember Project Echelon (sp?) from the Clinton admistration?

You leftists are on another fishing expedition. If you want to raise heck about W, lets talk about border enforcement, on meaningful tax reform and no reduction in the federal gov.

Izzo · Post by **Izzo** » Wed Mar 22, 2006 7:32 pm

BroncoSport wrote:oh you left out the facts that the current President authorized and the NSA used this for communications between KNOWN terrorist suspects contacting people within the USA and vice versa ONLY. Not one single instance of DOMESTIC eavestropping /wiretrapping from one citizen to another citizen, has been officially noted or accused. Also it is important to know that all of the previous Presidents, going back to at least Jimmy Carter, used that exact same executive privilege as W, only difference is that they WERE used domestically. Remember Project Echelon (sp?) from the Clinton admistration?

You leftists are on another fishing expedition. If you want to raise heck about W, lets talk about border enforcement, on meaningful tax reform and no reduction in the federal gov.

so quick to label...typical. Rofl ...at documented ....given this adminsitration it really is only a matter of time, in my opinion....regardless to the previous administrations my point was simply a program of this nature leaves to much room for abuse regardless of the administration....but go ahead label me what you want if you makes you feel better or validate your own beliefs

BroncoSport · Post by **BroncoSport** » Wed Mar 22, 2006 7:34 pm

As far as the TOPIC of the thread.... What the big deal. Personally I have a Federal Explosive Permit (class B fireworks) and the ATF required a FBI fingerprint card from me. My prints, all 10 of them, are on file forever. I could really care less. I am not breaking the law and leaving my prints at the scene of the crime..ect.. You people make it sound like this is some sort of human GPS. I got news for you, the gov already knows where your last known address is (US Post Office) and what debt you owe (credit reports) and what vehicle you drive (property tax) and any fines or tickets you have received (public records). Frankly with a little $$$, I can find out all this stuff about you as well. And with a clever P.I. or $20 to a waiter for your water glass, I could obtain your fingerprints as well.

You want the criminals caught (well not all of you) but are deathly afraid that YOU might have to prove that you are who YOU say you are and who your DL says you are. By the way, you can EASILY get a very realistic fake DL, for next to nothing $$ for any state. And the one I saw once would fool any cop.

thepieman · Post by **thepieman** » Wed Mar 22, 2006 7:41 pm

BroncoSport wrote:oh you left out the facts that the current President authorized and the NSA used this for communications between KNOWN terrorist suspects contacting people within the USA and vice versa ONLY. Not one single instance of DOMESTIC eavestropping /wiretrapping from one citizen to another citizen, has been officially noted or accused. Also it is important to know that all of the previous Presidents, going back to at least Jimmy Carter, used that exact same executive privilege as W, only difference is that they WERE used domestically. Remember Project Echelon (sp?) from the Clinton admistration?

You leftists are on another fishing expedition. If you want to raise heck about W, lets talk about border enforcement, on meaningful tax reform and no reduction in the federal gov.

So what if the president authorized it. The reason why we have checks and balances is so that no one person may have absolute control. Which is what happened in that case. How does our government KNOW terrorist phone numbers? Is there a terrorst directory? No, so of course they are going through millions of phone calls looking for subjects... as you said there is no officially noted cases as of yet. I doubt very much that program is as innocent as you make it seem. Which is scary that you guys are so apathetic towards all of this ID, Patriot Act and Wiretapping stuff. I bet during the cold war you used to proclaim how Russia was always lying to its citizens, keeping them in the dark ,keeping tabs on its people and how America was home of the free and the brave. We are working towards it.

thepieman · Post by **thepieman** » Wed Mar 22, 2006 7:48 pm

BroncoSport wrote:As far as the TOPIC of the thread.... What the big deal. Personally I have a Federal Explosive Permit (class B fireworks) and the ATF required a FBI fingerprint card from me. My prints, all 10 of them, are on file forever. I could really care less. I am not breaking the law and leaving my prints at the scene of the crime..ect.. You people make it sound like this is some sort of human GPS. I got news for you, the gov already knows where your last known address is (US Post Office) and what debt you owe (credit reports) and what vehicle you drive (property tax) and any fines or tickets you have received (public records). Frankly with a little $$$, I can find out all this stuff about you as well. And with a clever P.I. or $20 to a waiter for your water glass, I could obtain your fingerprints as well.

You want the criminals caught (well not all of you) but are deathly afraid that YOU might have to prove that you are who YOU say you are and who your DL says you are. By the way, you can EASILY get a very realistic fake DL, for next to nothing $$ for any state. And the one I saw once would fool any cop.

Trouble is that you are required to and by all means should since you are handling explosives. We are not handling explosives...people are just driving cars and should not be subject to seizure of their fingerprints just because some cop has a suspicion. If he is that suspicious he should just haul them down to the station and have them ID'd properly. Thats just BS to have to fingerprint people for a routine stop...how you would want to live like that is beyond me. Maybe next they will require you to put your finger in a biometric scanner at every state border toll booth too just to make sure you aren't a wanted criminal, or have outstanding warrants.

BroncoSport · Post by **BroncoSport** » Wed Mar 22, 2006 7:50 pm

Izzo wrote:so quick to label...typical. Rofl ...at documented ....given this adminsitration it really is only a matter of time, in my opinion....regardless to the previous administrations my point was simply a program of this nature leaves to much room for abuse regardless of the administration....but go ahead label me what you want if you makes you feel better or validate your own beliefs

label label label, you have no problem throwing labels like neo-con, dictator, police state ect out... Just call it as I see it, and I wasnt labeling you directly, you just happen to step into this lable by responsing to the "leftist" comment. How about lets root out the rest of the group. Heres a few more labels for a few of the members; socialist and communist. <- that ought to get em fired up

As far as "making you feel better".. you classified yourself as a leftist by responding this way... not me. I was speaking in general to a few posters of the political group. Mostly in jest. I dont feel one way or another. I am not asshamed to say that I am a conservitive with Libertarian to moderate leanings. I believe in God. I am for a strong traditional family, but also for a legal union for gay people to protect combined assets if a person dies after they are together as a couple. Not the "Holy Matrimony" because this is not permitted in Christianity. I believe that, at its core, Islam is a cruel.. hate filled religion that has NO tolorences for ANY other religions. I believe that the whenever the Gov gets involved it gets screwed up. Less gov.

Why do you people who are on the opposite side take offence when you are labeled or classified (just as I am) to your particular beliefs? Just curious. you dont call a plumber an electrician..... and you dont call a liberal a conservitive. You call a liberal a moron.

Izzo · Post by **Izzo** » Wed Mar 22, 2006 7:57 pm

[quote="BroncoSport"]label label label, you have no problem throwing labels like neo-con, dictator, police state ect out... Just call it as I see it, and I wasnt labeling you directly, you just happen to step into this lable by responsing to the "leftist" comment. How about lets root out the rest of the group. Heres a few more labels for a few of the members]

lol...show me a post of mine where i've labeled anyone anything....and I fit 'the label' because I responded to a post ??...that's just stupid man....keep labelin' though

Far-N-Wide · Post by **Far-N-Wide** » Wed Mar 22, 2006 8:08 pm

Well then it sounds like I might have to become an illegal US citizen. Illegal aliens have more rights now a days. Yah think we’ll do anything about them not getting this card when they don’t have any cards now?

My finger prints have been on file since Nov 83, My DNA since hmmm 98. I have no criminal history, nothing to hide. If you’re paranoid about your rights, move or live off the net in one of those remote isolationist camps in Idaho or Montana. Go live in the mountains. All this stuff is going on whether you like it or not.

Now the one that makes my butt pucker is RFID’s. I’m not fanatical religious person, but it smells of “Mark of the beast” to me. Forehead or hand…. (Shutters) Time will tell.

BroncoSport · Post by **BroncoSport** » Wed Mar 22, 2006 8:50 pm

Izzo wrote:lol...show me a post of mine where i've labeled anyone anything....and I fit 'the label' because I responded to a post ??...that's just stupid man....keep labelin' though

OK Izzo, I got carried up in the passion for "my side" I applogize for directly labeling you and such. My point in the first reply was made as an observation that you wouldnt have replied (IMO) the way you did, in response to the leftist comment...if you werent offended by the label because many of the people who argue the "other side" ....to me are leftist. BUT people who generaly agree with you, here on SG, lend to throw out those labels with regularity. So the comment was really a general statement to those you label me and other pro-Bush type people things like neo-con.

I have no beef with you.. I have differing opinions, though.

Izzo · Post by **Izzo** » Wed Mar 22, 2006 8:55 pm

BroncoSport wrote:OK Izzo, I got carried up in the passion for "my side" I applogize for directly labeling you and such. My point in the first reply was made as an observation that you wouldnt have replied (IMO) the way you did, in response to the leftist comment...if you werent offended by the label because many of the people who argue the "other side" ....to me are leftist. BUT people who generaly agree with you, here on SG, lend to throw out those labels with regularity. So the comment was really a general statement to those you label me and other pro-Bush type people things like neo-con.

I have no beef with you.. I have differing opinions, though.

that's fine...no worries.

downhill · Post by **downhill** » Wed Mar 22, 2006 8:56 pm

BroncoSport wrote:OK Izzo, I got carried up in the passion for "my side" I applogize for directly labeling you and such. My point in the first reply was made as an observation that you wouldnt have replied (IMO) the way you did, in response to the leftist comment...if you werent offended by the label because many of the people who argue the "other side" ....to me are leftist. BUT people who generaly agree with you, here on SG, lend to throw out those labels with regularity. So the comment was really a general statement to those you label me and other pro-Bush type people things like neo-con.

I have no beef with you.. I have differing opinions, though.

If I might jump in, my personal view is this isn't as much an left, right argument as much as it is a libertarian, authoritarian argument.

Brk · Post by **Brk** » Wed Mar 22, 2006 10:36 pm

BroncoSport wrote:Would you kindly supply a link for this. And what your source for the above information is. I have looked for conformation and CANNOT confirm that this has made it out of commitee in the Senate.

Thanks

Are you kidding? Google "real id act." There are inummerable links discussing it.

BroncoSport · Post by **BroncoSport** » Wed Mar 22, 2006 11:33 pm

Burke,

I am not talking about discussions about it. I wanted a link confirming that it not only passed the senate but that the president signed it. I cant find it. All I found was that it has gone from the house to the senate commitee.

Joint Chiefs of Staff · Thu Mar 23, 2006 12:16 am

knightmare wrote:All U.S. citizens to receive National ID card by 2008

The Real ID Act, passed by Congress and signed by President Bush on May 11, 2005, mandates that all U.S. citizens will receive a National ID card by May of 2008.

Without this National ID, you won't...

* Drive your car
* Board a plane, train, or bus
* Enter any federal building
* Open a bank account
* Hold a job

If you can’t hold a job or have a bank account, how much buying and selling will you be able to do?

One must ask, is the NATIONAL ID a card?

This will be outstanding for catching illegal immigrants!

Brk · Post by **Brk** » Thu Mar 23, 2006 12:18 am

BroncoSport wrote:Burke,

I am not talking about discussions about it. I wanted a link confirming that it not only passed the senate but that the president signed it. I cant find it. All I found was that it has gone from the house to the senate commitee.

It wasn't a separate bill. It was part of a larger bill. Signed by the president on May 11, 2005.

Public Law 109-13, the Emergency Supplemental Appropriations Act for Defense, the Global War on Terror, and Tsunami Relief, 2005

Unsurprisingly, it's tacked on waaaaaaaaaaaaay down at the bottom of the bill in Section 325.

Just for kicks, here's the SSA announcement on it:
http://www.ssa.gov/legislation/legis_bu ... 51305.html

Joint Chiefs of Staff · Thu Mar 23, 2006 12:19 am

BroncoSport wrote:Would you kindly supply a link for this. And what your source for the above information is. I have looked for conformation and CANNOT confirm that this has made it out of commitee in the Senate.

Thanks

http://news.com.com/National+ID+cards+o ... 73414.html

Bastid · Post by **Bastid** » Thu Mar 23, 2006 1:11 am

i do have a serious question... What can an average Joe do about it? if there is something that I can do, please, inform me. because ppl can be informed until they are blue in the face... but if noone can do anything about it, whats the point?

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'Pulled over in Kansas? Get ready to show your license, registration Â— and....

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